Ship Builds & Load Outs Ships Non-Combat Maelstrom Ship Builds?

I had put together a Dolphin build concept for this purpose, but as I read more I've started to lose confidence in it. I understand that the existence of Hunters has some impact on the ability to avoid combat with Thargoids in maelstrom systems by keeping temperature low, so what's the current theory on ship builds for extended maelstrom operations for pilots who don't want to get in any fights with Thargoid vessels?

Naturally, the AXI only has info about anti-Thargoid combat vessels, but I'm guessing build theory for non-combat maelstrom ships differs a bit more from combat ships than simply not equipping weapons (aside from the bare minimum necessary to destroy caustic generators for corrosive mechanisms and propulsion elements)

Additionally, how would ideal builds differ for the initial collection of materials to unlock caustic sink launchers (aside from the pre-unlock build having research limpets)?

Additional constraints:
  • No Core Dynamics or Gutamaya ships (don't wanna support the Empire or the Federation)
  • No Powerplay modules
  • No power plant engineering (Tani is an Imp, Farseer is a Fed, and Qwent is Sirius)
 
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Dolphin should work ok.

Personally I wouldn't use a Lightweight Hull - Military would last longer which is handy when starting out. And I would switch the 'E' rate modules for 'D' for a bit less weight. I would also suggest a Xeno Multi-limpet as it can have more limpets out (and can decontaminate/repair you). A small Collector limpet would be useful for the mats in the Maelstrom (though I guess if you have all the modules you don't need more mats). No need for a PVH, so more Hull / Module reinforcement I guess - or an FSD Booster (the Maelstrom will destroy it, but it might let you get to it in less jumps - maybe avoiding a hyperdiction).

Looks like 18% heat so you can get away without engineering the PP (yay for Dolph's broken heat mechanics \o/). Might be worth scheduling in a ride on a FCOC shuttle and get the Colonia engineer pinned.

ppl seem to advise dropping a h/s to avoid issues with Glaive - personally I just relog on them as they are just annoying, but others prefer to stay in-game so can't really advise on that - I escaped a few times but they didn't add to the gameplay for me so ...

Anyway - good luck!

Edit: And engineer that caustic sink as well! (Extra Capacity). I'd also go with more cargo for limpets and drop the AFMU, and add an Abrasion Blaster for mining the Titan, but that's just me.
 
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If I might cut in here - what about a DBS instead? Or would/should I need more optional modules than can be fitted on a DBS?
 
If I might cut in here - what about a DBS instead? Or would/should I need more optional modules than can be fitted on a DBS?
IMHO the limiting factor on Maelstrom builds tends to be Utility Slots as you have a number of non-optional Utility modules (and can never have enough Caustic Sinks). Optional Internals is just limpets / limpet controllers & reinforcement. Main problem with the smaller ships is if you want to bring back samples, as you want enough cargo capacity to bring things back.

DBS would suffer as it can't take a size 4 CRCR. ofc if you don't want samples it is great as it will run colder than ... just about anything :)
 
Dolphin should work ok.

Personally I wouldn't use a Lightweight Hull - Military would last longer which is handy when starting out. And I would switch the 'E' rate modules for 'D' for a bit less weight. I would also suggest a Xeno Multi-limpet as it can have more limpets out (and can decontaminate/repair you). A small Collector limpet would be useful for the mats in the Maelstrom (though I guess if you have all the modules you don't need more mats). No need for a PVH, so more Hull / Module reinforcement I guess - or an FSD Booster (the Maelstrom will destroy it, but it might let you get to it in less jumps - maybe avoiding a hyperdiction).

Looks like 18% heat so you can get away without engineering the PP (yay for Dolph's broken heat mechanics \o/). Might be worth scheduling in a ride on a FCOC shuttle and get the Colonia engineer pinned.

ppl seem to advise dropping a h/s to avoid issues with Glaive - personally I just relog on them as they are just annoying, but others prefer to stay in-game so can't really advise on that - I escaped a few times but they didn't add to the gameplay for me so ...

Anyway - good luck!

Edit: And engineer that caustic sink as well! (Extra Capacity). I'd also go with more cargo for limpets and drop the AFMU, and add an Abrasion Blaster for mining the Titan, but that's just me.
The E-rated modules are to further decrease power draw; the main reason temps are so low in the provided link is because many modules are disabled.
I'm glad you reminded me of the MGC hull, though, because I'd forgotten that the thrusters' minimum mass allows for quite a bit more mass to be packed on without impacting speed (which also means I don't need the decreased weight of the D-rated lifesupport/sensors/shields or G-rated PVH), since jump range is not a primary concern.
The PVH is to try to get a scan of a Revenant so I can fill out that codex entry, though I have swapped the 4H PVH and the class-2 CR with a class-4 CRCR and a 2H PVH
I've also switched the 5A AFMU and 2D MAHRP for a heavy duty+deep plating 5D HRP and 2A AFMU

Current design

I should also mention that I haven't actually built this ingame yet, nor have I unlocked caustic sinks or the thargoid pulse neutraliser (though I do have a high-speed Orca specifically built for rumrunning unclassified relics)
 
Alright, so, update time
I finished the initial outfitting/engineering of my Dolphin to gather the materials to unlock the caustic sinks/TPN. Jumped into HIP 30377 and made it to Maelstrom Hadad, having no trouble escaping the initial hyperdiction and low-waking out of several supercruise interdictions (I suppose I should note that I was not silent running at any point, though my ship temperature was 19% at equilibrium while in supercruise). Shields held each time, and the scouts' shield breach attacks that hit were collectively only able to lower my hull to 99%, with no damage to modules.
Feeling confident, I pressed into the caustic cloud, and was destroyed within minutes by nothing but caustic damage without collecting a single material.
(build used)
(I also made the mistake of not having limpets prepped beforehand for repair, though I'm not sure they'd be able to help while the ship is actively taking damage)

So I'm guessing I'm probably gonna need a bigger/beefier ship, at least for the initial material collection. I already have a Krait Phantom, Anaconda, Python, DBX, FDL, Orca, or AspX I can reoutfit for the purpose, but I'm not opposed to buying an entirely new ship. Money's not that big of a concern.
  • Must have collector, repair, and research limpets (multi or separate), as well as CRCR, shutdown neutralizer, some kind of xeno scanner, and heatsinks
  • Should probably be able to outrun interceptors/scouts in realspace (or otherwise reliably low-wake out or somehow prevent supercruise interdiction altogether)
  • Must be able to reliably collect at least one of the necessary materials (caustic shards, corrosive mechanisms/propulsion elements, caustic tissue samples, massive energy surge analytics) per attempt
    • To what extent does gathering materials from caustic generators actually require a low temperature? How easy is it to attach and successfully use a research limpet above 20% temperature? Does a self-destructing caustic generator still drop corrosive mechanisms/propulsion elements, or are those only obtainable by destroying it with weapons? Can a thermal vent beam laser be used to keep temps low while using a research limpet on it?
  • Are module reinforcements necessary for combat-avoidant bulids or would those slots be better filled with more hull reinforcements?
  • Effective hull health (vs caustic damage) should be prioritized over jump range
  • How many/what class of thermal vent beam laser(s) is recommended? What primary modification is recommended for general in-maelstrom heat-management?
  • Shield strength of ~100 was plenty for the small window of damage taken during interdictions in my 386top/540boost Dolphin, so would shieldless be better?
  • Higher speed(+slightly lower idle temp) of dirty tuning or lower thruster temp of clean tuning? Higher speed of drag drives or lower thruster temp of thermal spread?
  • Is it worth sacrificing jump range for better thermals(/boot time in case of Hunters)?
I can probably figure something out if I know what to prioritize. The Kraits both seem to have pretty good thermals (though obviously not as good as the Dolphin's) while still being able to beat 530m/s with dirty tuning (with the Phantom actually being just barely able to outrun the Dolphin via slightly more frequent boosts). Aside from that, I've also seen people recommending Anaconda, T10, AspX, and Orca, but I don't know whether any of these would be good enough without access to powerplant engineering.
 
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Does a self-destructing caustic generator still drop corrosive mechanisms/propulsion elements, or are those only obtainable by destroying it with weapons?
Drops both from it blowing up on a ship, and if you blast it with a weapon.

Don’t shoot it with a TV beam. They are very easy to destroy even with regular human weapons(explosion radius is ~3km iirc), as they don’t have the resistance to then(or are just really fragile). To really be sure you’d want to approach in silent running or after dropping a heatsink. And hope it doesn’t propel itself in your face and into the auto-detectability zone of 500m.

What primary modification is recommended for general in-maelstrom heat-management?
Can’t go wrong with long range, since it keeps potential consistent at any distance without increasing distributor draw. I wouldn’t worry about the beam too much until you reach the center, though.

Are module reinforcements necessary for combat-avoidant bulids or would those slots be better filled with more hull reinforcements?
I usually carry 1-2 for Maelstrom research but it is very much possible to avoid getting shot entirely even all the way in the center of the cloud. If anything, the only risk of getting shot you realistically run is there.

Not able to offer much advice on the other aspects since I run with a low emissions powerplant… but you could technically use clean drives and still be fine to run from Scouts and Interceptors anyway. As long as your boost speed is around 450 they shouldn’t catch up before the FSD is off cooldown and you’re out of there.
 
This is my Clipper. This is what works for me, and from looking at others builds, there is a few common traits to aim for IMHO.

Maximum Armor. Small Guardian HRP's wouldn't hurt either, get that caustic bonus. You're basically trying to maximize your survival time from caustic damage. I prioritize Hull over Module protection for Maelstroms personally and I don't bother with shields; saves a slot for a HRP. The Clipper allows for a Universal Limpet controller (class 7) which saves module space, but it's small fuel tank means Hyperdictions can become an issue for the trip home. Your Python or Krait Phantom would probably work well, but no class 7 means you may lose module space to limpet controllers that you could have HRP's installed in. The Python may not get up to 450 depending on how you build it, but the Phantom should albeit with lower armor (less time). Keep to the edges of the cloud and go for Maelstrom Taranis; has the shortest flight time so less chance of random attacks leading to damage before you get there*.

Thrusters - Clean Drag Drives. Keeping your temps down means you'll attract less attention in the cloud allowing you to concentrate on material gathering. If you can engineer clean thrusters for low temps and still get over 450, then it will be just the Glaives that will bother you if you have to run/get hyperdicted/interdicted. Silent running and/or ECM help there while a 450+ boost speed should be good enough for everything else.

Power Plant - Low Emissions Thermal Spread. Grade 4 on my Clipper keeps power output high enough but temps still below Thargoid detection. Grade 5 reduces power output too much with no required thermal benefit. Grade 3 is good enough on the python and phantom examples above (under 18% I believe?).

Sensors - A rated Long range. Means you can scan at a greater distance. I've not tried using D rated so I can't definitively say A rated is best, but others recommend it, and it makes sense so ...

*I tend to pop a repair limpet as I enter the cloud to repair any damage sustained along the way/keep caustic damage at bay. If it gets too bad, you can burn it off with silent running and a thermal vent beam laser pointed at nothing, then heatsink or the thermal vent beam to cool down again. The decon limpets never seem to do much in my experience.
 
Power Plant - Low Emissions Thermal Spread. Grade 4 on my Clipper keeps power output high enough but temps still below Thargoid detection. Grade 5 reduces power output too much with no required thermal benefit. Grade 3 is good enough on the python and phantom examples above (under 18% I believe?).
Still not using Gutamaya ships or powerplant engineering
*I tend to pop a repair limpet as I enter the cloud to repair any damage sustained along the way/keep caustic damage at bay. If it gets too bad, you can burn it off with silent running and a thermal vent beam laser pointed at nothing, then heatsink or the thermal vent beam to cool down again. The decon limpets never seem to do much in my experience.
So damage from the cloud doesn't stop repair limpets?
but you could technically use clean drives and still be fine to run from Scouts and Interceptors anyway. As long as your boost speed is around 450 they shouldn’t catch up before the FSD is off cooldown and you’re out of there.
I'd been aiming for 530 since that's the Basilisk's top speed, but being able to go lower than that (and still reliably escape from Basilisks) would certainly open up more ship options
 
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So damage from the cloud doesn't stop repair limpets?
It does not, but eventually the caustic stacks will get so intense(as the cloud will keep putting them on your ship, the difference is that they stack a lot faster as you go deeper), and no existing repair limpet can entirely counter the damage at its highest point.

I'd been aiming for 530 since that's the Basilisk's top speed, but being able to go lower than that (and still reliably escape from Basilisks) would certainly open up more ship options
530 isn’t really necessary to outrun a Basilisk after an interdiction or hyperdiction. I think you can even get away with 450 but around 480 to 500 is definitely enough that they won’t be able to catch up before you’re gone. Reason being that they have to stop and remain stationary while deploying the Thargon swarm.

If one ever goes after you elsewhere, an easy way to get away from the Basi is to go FA off some distance away from it, slow down and boost in the opposite direction of its heading. Inertia will carry it well out of range of both weapons and mass lock.

(Works with any interceptor, but mostly useful for the Basilisk… if you’re not in a Corvette or Anaconda. Not particularly effective of a tactic against Glaives in my experience, unless you have a boost speed approaching 600 or higher.)
 
Alright so based on this information, I made builds in EDSY of every possible ship based on the following common rules and recorded the stats:
  • No Core Dynamics or Gutamaya ships
  • Military grade composite, heavy duty+deep plating
  • Smallest A-rated power plant possible while still meeting power requirements; unengineered
  • Max thrusters, drag drives (dirty/clean builds considered separately)
  • Max FSD, increased range+mass manager (pre-engineered for class-5s)
  • E-rate life support, lightweight(3)
  • Lowest-draw power distributor possible while still achieving max boost frequency; charge enhanced+flow control, or charge enhanced+super conduits if necessary
  • A-rate sensors, long range
  • Single 1E gimballed beam laser, long range(3)+thermal vent; no other weapons
  • Enhanced xeno scanner+shutdown field neutralizer; fill remaining utility mounts with ammo capacity heat sink launchers (minimum 1)
  • 4E CRCR
  • 7C universal MLC if possible, otherwise 3A collector LC (lightweight)+3B xeno MLC
  • D-rated MRP in smallest remaining optional internal slot; use remaining optional internal slots to maximize caustic effective hull integrity (CEHI) (builds with/without Guardian HRPs considered separately)
  • For speed/jump range numbers, assume 8T cargo
2023-07-26 13-20-29-921 JKPwnage PWNSTATION 2600x2164.png


The following candidate builds stick out:

Dolphin (dirty tuning, with GHRPs)
  • Highest CEHI under 20% idle temperature, but still quite low: only 2639
  • Definitely fast enough: 422 top, 591 boost
  • Only one heat sink launcher though
Dolphin (clean tuning, no GHRPs)
  • Coldest thrust temperature, just barely above 20%
  • CEHI is even lower, at 2573.3
Krait Mk II (dirty tuning, no GHRPs)
  • Best temperature+hull score above 530m/s boost speed
  • Decent temperatures: 21.6% idle, 25.7% thrust
  • Average silent running time
  • Average CEHI (4409)
Anaconda (dirty tuning, with GHRPs)
  • Highest CEHI, at 11226.4
  • Slow; 280 top, 374 boost
  • Relatively warm: 26.4% idle, 29.1% thrust
  • Six heat sink launchers let it last quite a while in silent running, though the interval between sinks is very short
  • Universal MLC means much better repair limpets
  • Highest rebuy
  • Can low-wake away from Hunters
Type-10 Defender (dirty tuning, no GHRPs)
  • Longest total silent running time due to six heat sink launchers and average time per sink
  • Very high CEHI (8621.2)
  • Very slow: 258 top, 316 boost
  • Good temperatures: 20.7% idle, 24.1% thrust
  • Universal MLC
Diamondback Explorer (dirty tuning, no GHRPs)
  • Highest interval between heatsinks when silent running thanks to its very low power consumption and extremely high heat capacity
  • Idle temp of 18.8%, thrust 23.5%
  • Abysmal CEHI (2299.9)
  • Extremely high jump range, both per-jump and full-tank
  • Lowest rebuy cost
Python (dirty tuning, with GHRPs)
  • Highest CEHI above 450m/s boost speed (5512.3)
  • Average temperatures (23.4% idle, 27.3% thrust)
  • Can personally confirm it works well
and, just for fun,

Orca (dirty tuning, no GHRPs)
  • EXTREMELY FAST (498 top, 631 boost)
  • Average temperatures (25% idle, 29.4% thrust)
  • Average silent running
  • Average CEHI (4030)
(EDIT: forgot the collector limpet controller can have lightweight, which squeezes about an extra m/s out on the ships that can't equip the UMLC (and also aren't already below their thrusters' minimum mass) (and also increases jump range a bit obviously, though that doesn't matter as much). Spreadsheet and builds have been updated.)
(EDIT: switched to A-rated sensors and fixed scoring formula as per post below. Spreadsheet and builds have been updated)
 
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Good update this time: I re-outfitted my Python according to the dirty+GHRP build above and took it into Maelstrom Taranis (this time with knowledge of previous mistakes as well as your (and others') advice up my sleeve). I managed to successfully collect all the materials necessary to unlock caustic sink launchers within three visits, with pit stops at Vukurbeh for RRR before and after each visit. I was able to escape each (hyper||inter)diction without taking any damage by simply boosting toward the target system in hyperdictions and by doing a sort of sloppy, space-based version of a barrel roll in regular interdictions. I believe there were at least two instances where a Glaive was present during a hyperdiction (though I can't be sure as my ship was never facing them and I'm not familiar enough with their sounds), and had caught up to me enough to reappear on my sensors shortly before my FSD finished its initial charge, with one managing to fire a missile off in vain shortly before I jumped out.

Speaking of sensors, I quickly realized that E-rated sensors, even with long range, were insufficient to lock onto caustic generators, so I switched back to the Long Range 6A sensors I'd previously had on my Python, though I found that even that was only able to detect the caustic generators from about a kilometer away, but then again, if detection range scales linearly with the sensors' typical emissions range, that's still probably a much greater area in which they're able to detect the caustic generators while still being outside their guaranteed detonation radius.

Given that, I updated all the other builds in the spreadsheet to use A-rated sensors instead of E-rated, which increases their heat generation (even pushing the coldest Dolphin build above 20% thruster temp), rebuy cost, and, in some cases, weight (due to needing a higher-class power plant). In two cases (the Beluga and Type 6), the GHRP builds had to switch back to regular HRPs as the highest compatible A-rated power plant was unable to accommodate them.

During this, I noticed that a ship's score in my spreadsheet would incorrectly increase when I entered the higher power consumption numbers in, and discovered an error in the scoring formula that considered high silent running times to be a bad thing (for instance, using ((max(Y$2:Y$51)-Y2)/(max(Y$2:Y$51)-min(Y$2:Y$51))) instead of ((Y2-min(Y$2:Y$51))/(max(Y$2:Y$51)-min(Y$2:Y$51)))). This has now been fixed, and the builds above have been updated to match, though I should also note that I never actually used silent running during any of my visits except for the purpose of overheating to burn off caustic DOT stacks.

After unlocking caustic sink launchers, I replaced one of the heat sink launchers on my Python with a caustic sink launcher (engineered with high capacity of course) and got the five massive energy surge analytics for the pulse neutralizer in two visits (I was disappointed to find that a hit from the pulse only gave 1 analytics instead of the 3-packs most materials come in). In both these visits and the first three, my ship was never destroyed once (though my hull did drop below 20% by the time I left from the first visit). Overall, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the performance of this build, at least for these purposes. I may switch to a Krait Mk II if I ever actually visit the Titan itself, though I'm not in any particular rush to do so at the moment. Maybe that'll change with the impending Update 16; who knows.

In any case, I'm incredibly grateful for all your advice and suggestions. o7
 
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