Notoriety does the exact opposite of what it should do.

[DemiserofD]

I found myself thinking about Notoriety today, and I realized...it may be the perfect example of bad game design.

In that, it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it does do what it shouldn't do, and it actively breaks your immersion to do it.

First off: What is the purpose of a Crime and Punishment system?

Basically it's twofold.

1. On the PVE front, it's to make some tasks more difficult, thereby justifying greater reward.

2. On the PVP front, it's to discourage excessive bad behavior, and encourage good behavior.

Now, lets think; what does Notoriety actually accomplish?

Well, for an experienced player, it does essentially nothing. If it gets to the point of being an issue, they can just leave their computer on overnight, and pow! Notoriety-B-Gone! Simultaneously, they have more than enough cash and experience to get rid of any pesky bounty that may come their way.

On the flipside, for an inexperienced player, it can be utterly crippling. Still in the honeymoon phase, needing to go afk for a dozen hours isn't an acceptable option, and most players won't even realize what gives them notoriety until it happens. For example, doing a spec ops mission; you kill the dozens of passenger liners and no notoriety! You kill the cops defending them in the same instance and pow! Notoriety!

And there's no ingame way to remove notoriety, so, given the various downsides to having it, the most practical and effective way to get rid of it is to just...leave. Whether that be via exploration or just going afk overnight, one way or another, whatever you were doing is over with.

So. You have a system that doesn't punish experienced players, but excessively punishes newer players who don't know how to deal with it. It has effectively no impact on preventing bad behavior at the endgame, but makes the game arbitrarily hard for newer players. And worst of all, it drags you out of the game to make it go away.

Is it possible this is the worst example of game design to ever exist? Seriously, I see absolutely no upside to having notoriety in the game in its current implementation. Literally all of its effects are bad.

I'm not asking for a huge C&P rework or whatever, but is fixing such an obviously awful mechanic too much to ask?

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Maybe the consequences should be explicitly explained at the point of missions, maybe notoriety shouldn't expire for a very long time, if at all but be tied permanently to the ship until the inevitable Revit/fine repayment.

Notoriety should have real consequences but also be considered as a badge of honour amongst those who choose that way of life. Maybe it should come with a "fear" attribute which puts off smaller security details from engaging, instead calling in support which takes a time to arrive rather than insta spawning in the instance regardless of where you are.

There's ultimately a billion better and deeper ways of doing it that are better than what we have but seriously don't hold your breath or hold out any hope of it changing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Notoriety should be a tool that the game uses like a morality meter. So, high notoriety players unlock more criminal missions and places but lock others- so the badder you are the more of the underworld opens to you, and the lawful closes.

High notoriety should make NPC traders drop cargo in panic as an example of a 'perk', while you have to be careful being scanned in lawful systems.

 

[Susanna]

OP I think you are suffering from a logic overload dear Vulcan.

You are trying to resolve something that is inherently illogical with.... Errr... Logic.

C&P was never intended to be an effective deterrent to crime. It's simply an appearance of doing something about crime while enabling exactly the same game play to continue. You are labouring under the misapprehension that FD give a fiddle about C&P. Far from it. ED was always intended to promote criminal behaviour in their distopian game. The many discussions on this forum about C&P have more than made that apparent.

As for C&P being entirely inverse to its stated objectives. Got it in One! Otherwise notoriety would indeed be permanent. Although, the problem has always been how to deal with inadvert criminal behaviour.

But essentially what Rubbernuke has said is spot on. It needs to be a scale between criminal and lawful game functionality, which swings the game mechanics accordingly. You need to work off criminality by doing good deeds (game mechanics like rescuing passengers from burning stations, recovering escape pods etc). It shouldn't be a simple timer!

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Notoriety should be a tool that the game uses like a morality meter. So, high notoriety players unlock more criminal missions and places but lock others- so the badder you are the more of the underworld opens to you, and the lawful closes.

High notoriety should make NPC traders drop cargo in panic as an example of a 'perk', while you have to be careful being scanned in lawful systems.

It was suggested ages ago they should have vastly expanded the scope and usefulness of anarchy / pirate systems to facilitate this.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It was suggested ages ago they should have vastly expanded the scope and usefulness of anarchy / pirate systems to facilitate this.

You don't even need that- what is needed is:

Engineering needs / needed to be its original scope of small sidegrades. That way, players are not overpowered v NPC sec forces, and would make v ATR a case of having to run each time

Notoriety is a neutral measure of your 'morality' and not really part of C+P itself, just the key that unlocks/ locks parts of the BGS to you

Player bounties should stick to players (no IF past a certain point), but become inactive if left unscanned for a set amount of time. On scan its reactivated (depending on severity) sec or ATR are called to a 'sighting' forcing you to fight, flee or die- it could be then that anarchies and some gov types scan less, or do not care.

Criminal payouts for BMs and criminal missions be seriously higher than lawful ones. At least 3:1 more otherwise people just suck rocks and profit.

By de-powering players, and linking sec response to scans and ID you force criminals to smuggle themselves about, and that if ATR pop up and take your shields away in a few shots will make people like me have to be very careful about killing- not make it impossible but much trickier.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Aye, there's loads of better ways of doing it, like I said though don't hold your breath

 

[Rubbernuke]

Aye, there's loads of better ways of doing it, like I said though don't hold your breath

Indeed. What annoys me is C+P can be made (PvE wise at least) a real gameplay tool with simple, bold changes. Its a dogs breakfast because it has loads of legacy cogs and wheels still inside it.

 

[CMDR Saigon]

All good points CMDRs. They could for example: to reduce notoriety go to rescue Occupied Escape Pods say 25 OEP per 1 reduction in notoriety. Currently gameplay provides no incentives to rescue these even when they are legally salvaged NPCs will interdict every few minutes - that's the current silly gameplay!

 

[GonzTheMalificent]

First time I was going to wipe my Alt I went to 10 notoriety to see what happened. So, I agree with OP!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

ED was always intended to promote criminal behaviour in their distopian game

Though this itself hasn't really worked either - Odyssey is the first bit where criminal activities are somewhat encouraged. In Horizons ... megaship looting has been broken for years, piracy pays considerably less than honest trading/mining for greater risk, smuggling doesn't pay more, criminal missions are both harder and lower pay than their legal equivalents.

 

[Jmanis]

Notoriety should be a tool that the game uses like a morality meter. So, high notoriety players unlock more criminal missions and places but lock others- so the badder you are the more of the underworld opens to you, and the lawful closes.

High notoriety should make NPC traders drop cargo in panic as an example of a 'perk', while you have to be careful being scanned in lawful systems.

Yup.

The big problem right now for notoriety is, the best criminals know how to avoid or shake notoriety off, and have planned well ahead due it.

Meanwhile, "lawful" players who somehow become notorious get trashed for it.

It should be structured so that "bad guys" don't want to lose notoriety and will suffer significantly for losing it, and "good guys" can shake the rare indiscretion much easier.

The notion that fines, bounties and notoriety are should be tools of punishments and deterrents for player failure needs to die quickly.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yup.

The big problem right now for notoriety is, the best criminals know how to avoid or shake notoriety off, and have planned well ahead due it.

Meanwhile, "lawful" players who somehow become notorious get trashed for it.

It should be structured so that "bad guys" don't want to lose notoriety and will suffer significantly for losing it, and "good guys" can shake the rare indiscretion much easier.

The notion that fines, bounties and notoriety are should be tools of punishments and deterrents for player failure needs to die quickly.

Indeed- it should be that players have to murder / execute NPCs to gain entry or prove loyalty for gangs.

 

[Jmanis]

Indeed- it should be that players have to murder / execute NPCs to gain entry or prove loyalty for gangs.

I mean, we're one step closer with that Engineer who needs Unfriendly or lower rep with Sirius.... one... very... very... small step.

(it would be cooler if you lost access if you went above unfriendly again)

 

[Sylow]

[...]

I'm not asking for a huge C&P rework or whatever, but is fixing such an obviously awful mechanic too much to ask?

Many people here told FD all you wrote and much more about C&P and the Notoriety system. When it was announced and presented. When it was released. And then again and again. With plenty of suggestions on how to improve it.

FD reacted to that the same way they tried to release Odyssey: ignore the problem, hoping that people will so much get used to it that they will actually love it. (Which is not that surprising. No matter how bad a game mechanic is, give things a little time and somebody will turn up here and tell you how much he loves it and would never want it to be changed. )

 

[Rubbernuke]

I mean, we're one step closer with that Engineer who needs Unfriendly or lower rep with Sirius.... one... very... very... small step.

(it would be cooler if you lost access if you went above unfriendly again)

Its about the only part of ED:O thats thinking outside the box, really.

Could you imagine BGS neutral gangs roving about on megaships, and the only way to land / join the gang for ultra illegal and hugely profitable missions all about breaking the law was to earn rep....by being bad after an invite? So in game, you could join the Scriveners if you were 'like them' and viewed everything with data on as currency?

STOP IT....stop making me use my imagination.

cries

 

[Sylow]

It's always funny... Rubber and me are quite at opposite ends of the game spectrum, yet once again, i so very much agree with this. Wish i could give you like a dozen of likes for this posting...

Engineering needs / needed to be its original scope of small sidegrades. That way, players are not overpowered v NPC sec forces, and would make v ATR a case of having to run each time

That by itself would be my first 10 likes... cull that beast of engineering, turn it into the fine tuning system as it was sold to us.

Notoriety is a neutral measure of your 'morality' and not really part of C+P itself, just the key that unlocks/ locks parts of the BGS to you

Also yea! And get rid of the "fades in the run of time" part. Rather, moving it in either way should require player action.

Criminal payouts for BMs and criminal missions be seriously higher than lawful ones. At least 3:1 more otherwise people just suck rocks and profit.

On this part i am kind of "meh". Many people, you included, made much better suggestions than this for how to make criminal gameplay more interesting. (See: the posting you wrote while i was typing this. ) But considering how much FD regularily is shying away even from minimal effort improvements, i fear that you are right: that's the uttermost maximum you could hope for here. And definitely not this year and probably also not the next one.

 

[Mavsy 81]

Notoriety is apart of system sercurity, and as system security as a game system is extremely shallow, it will feel this way.
You touched on it when you stated its meaningless for experience players and crippling for new players.
Whats one of the things that happens when you get experienced at Elite?
You lose all respect for system security.
This should be the absolute numero uno system/mechanic that should be improved
Almost every action you take should be directed by it

 

[Rubbernuke]

On this part i am kind of "meh". Many people, you included, made much better suggestions than this for how to make criminal gameplay more interesting. (See: the posting you wrote while i was typing this. ) But considering how much FD regularily is shying away even from minimal effort improvements, i fear that you are right: that's the uttermost maximum you could hope for here. And definitely not this year and probably also not the next one.

One of the big issues with ED is that the whole concept of crime is, well, busted.

Its far, far too easy to make money risk free- which then drives massive (and repetitive) money making schemes which add nothing to the BGS...the BGS should be seeing a balance between +ve and -ve INF but everyone is far too busy pushing +ve because thats where the money is, pumping up factions and making the BGS far too uniform.

To me, crime should pay out massively and be the 'easy' route to wealth, but come at a massive cost- denied access to 'cilvilised' systems, bounty hunters after you, always having to look over your shoulder, and that when you get caught / shot down it really hurts, enough to make hardened criminals experts at evasion and thinking ahead. Get to a certain threshold of crime you should be locked out of all superpowers and limited to indie systems / anarchy.

 

[Sylow]

One of the big issues with ED is that the whole concept of crime is, well, busted.

Aye.

Its far, far too easy to make money risk free- which then drives massive (and repetitive) money making schemes which add nothing to the BGS...the BGS should be seeing a balance between +ve and -ve INF but everyone is far too busy pushing +ve because thats where the money is, pumping up factions and making the BGS far too uniform.

To me, crime should pay out massively and be the 'easy' route to wealth, but come at a massive cost- denied access to 'cilvilised' systems, bounty hunters after you, always having to look over your shoulder, and that when you get caught / shot down it really hurts, enough to make hardened criminals experts at evasion and thinking ahead. Get to a certain threshold of crime you should be locked out of all superpowers and limited to indie systems / anarchy.

I get your logic. But i also dare to say: in the present state (which after all these years can't really be undone any more) credits won't persuade anybody but the most poor new commander. For which it'll then be a trap.

Interesting gameplay, which you yourself also hinted towards, would be the actual solution. Unfortunately, implementing that would also be actual work. So yes, i guess more credits is the best we can get here.