Notoriety - idle thoughts

Maybe I'm just too much of a goody two-shoes, and I have been away from the game for a year or two, but today is the first time I've encountered notoriety close-up.

I was given an assassination mission by an NPC to kill an NPC. So I went out there, found he'd moved, went to where we apparently immediately knew he was, landed beside his ship, stepped out onto the planet surface, shot him down, got back in my ship, and flew away.

Part of me feels a bit sorry that we can't have a little more in the missions than that. Say, to go to where he was last seen and ask around NPCs or something, check terminal records, do a little hacking or sneaking around to find information, which eventually leads us to a signature we can use shipboard equipment to pin down and locate the target. You know: investigate. Hunt.

(In the old Frontier games I used to like the bit where you could use a hyperspace cloud analyser - the old version of a wake scanner - to figure out where your target had jumped to, then use your longer-range witch-drive to arrive there before them and be lying in wait when they jump in. It was still simple, but it was pretty fun.)

Still, that's a different whinge. This whinge is about the notoriety point I got applied to me when I killed him (again, despite being alone on a desolate, uninhabited world, the galaxy's law enforcement system still knew immediately I pulled the trigger that he'd been murdered and that I was the one that did it. Anybody see that film Anon, with Clive Owen, where he was a homicide detective in a world where social media was so embedded in society, and even in people, that you couldn't do murder any more because it would all be recorded and uploaded immediately to the network? This is like that.)

So I get my notoriety and my fine/bounty/whatever and I go back to the base where I was given the mission, and I'm locked out of the stuff because of the bounty - but I can't pay off the bounty because of the notoriety. And the only way to get rid of the notoriety is to wait. Wait real time in the real world - but logged into the game, of course, because of course - until it goes away.

This makes no sense to me. I can see a use for notoriety as a means of hindering a griefing campaign or whatever: apply it to someone who attacks player ships, and it limits the amount of that that they can do, or at least inconveniences them more the more they do it.

But to apply it for missions targeting NPCs? Since it's a gameplay-hindering mechanic it seems odd to make it an intrinsic part of the PVE game over and above fines and bounties and reputation hits. Play the game and the game punishes you by making playing the game more difficult?

I'm sure this has all been debated to death already - I gather notoriety has been in a while and, as I say, I've always just been too law-abiding to notice it. Now I've noticed it, and it's frankly a bit odd.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Maybe I'm just too much of a goody two-shoes, and I have been away from the game for a year or two, but today is the first time I've encountered notoriety close-up.

I was given an assassination mission by an NPC to kill an NPC. So I went out there, found he'd moved, went to where we apparently immediately knew he was, landed beside his ship, stepped out onto the planet surface, shot him down, got back in my ship, and flew away.

Part of me feels a bit sorry that we can't have a little more in the missions than that. Say, to go to where he was last seen and ask around NPCs or something, check terminal records, do a little hacking or sneaking around to find information, which eventually leads us to a signature we can use shipboard equipment to pin down and locate the target. You know: investigate. Hunt.

(In the old Frontier games I used to like the bit where you could use a hyperspace cloud analyser - the old version of a wake scanner - to figure out where your target had jumped to, then use your longer-range witch-drive to arrive there before them and be lying in wait when they jump in. It was still simple, but it was pretty fun.)

Still, that's a different whinge. This whinge is about the notoriety point I got applied to me when I killed him (again, despite being alone on a desolate, uninhabited world, the galaxy's law enforcement system still knew immediately I pulled the trigger that he'd been murdered and that I was the one that did it. Anybody see that film Anon, with Clive Owen, where he was a homicide detective in a world where social media was so embedded in society, and even in people, that you couldn't do murder any more because it would all be recorded and uploaded immediately to the network? This is like that.)

So I get my notoriety and my fine/bounty/whatever and I go back to the base where I was given the mission, and I'm locked out of the stuff because of the bounty - but I can't pay off the bounty because of the notoriety. And the only way to get rid of the notoriety is to wait. Wait real time in the real world - but logged into the game, of course, because of course - until it goes away.

This makes no sense to me. I can see a use for notoriety as a means of hindering a griefing campaign or whatever: apply it to someone who attacks player ships, and it limits the amount of that that they can do, or at least inconveniences them more the more they do it.

But to apply it for missions targeting NPCs? Since it's a gameplay-hindering mechanic it seems odd to make it an intrinsic part of the PVE game over and above fines and bounties and reputation hits. Play the game and the game punishes you by making playing the game more difficult?

I'm sure this has all been debated to death already - I gather notoriety has been in a while and, as I say, I've always just been too law-abiding to notice it. Now I've noticed it, and it's frankly a bit odd.
It's the entire C&P system that needs another rework. It's just all over the place with Odyssey new rules as well. It's not very preventive to ganking/griefing behaviour in game, while at the same time being just a PITB for a regular player.

It's just bad.
 
The game is the same in any scenario, PvE or PvP. There is no distinction between the mechanics of the game and the status of your target. Crime is crime and it all has to be accounted for. The Mission Board indicates by a number of methods, when a mission's task is illegal. Goody-Two-Shoes don't accept illegal missions... Amirite?

One murder will leave you with a short period of Notoriety, something like 2 hrs per lvl of notoriety. Plus, it's tagged to the exact ship you used to commit the crime, and only with the authority of the controlling faction of the system. Avoiding the offensive ship, or the offended faction should allow that time to pass peacefully. You could keep a criminal ship stored up in some Anarchy system for use when you are going to crime.

The game-play is designed to have a bit of dystopian realism to it. It's in the family of having every ship in an instance start gunning for you, when you hit a clean ship. You should be able to find a guide to "Crimes and Punishment" in ED. That would help you to gronk all of the intricacies of our stellar justice(?) system.
 
Did you scan the NPC before shooting?
Normally, a bounty appears and you can shoot without gaining notoriety.

I say "normally" because there have been a few instances when no bounties appeared, even though the mission was legal, possibly related to the fact that the NPC escaped to a system where the bounty wouldn't be applicable (but still doesn't make much sense to me 🤔)
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Did you scan the NPC before shooting?
Normally, a bounty appears and you can shoot without gaining notoriety.

I say "normally" because there have been a few instances when no bounties appeared, even though the mission was legal, possibly related to the fact that the NPC escaped to a system where the bounty wouldn't be applicable (but still doesn't make much sense to me 🤔)
Do we actually have a KWS equivalent for foot scanner? I don't think we do, but I may be wrong.
 
Missons don't normally give notoriety, so killing a mission target giving notoriety is a bug, or like HR says it's because they moved system. I don't know much about that because one of the many advantages of using Apex is that they never flee, so that never happens to me :)
 
The game is the same in any scenario, PvE or PvP. There is no distinction between the mechanics of the game and the status of your target. Crime is crime and it all has to be accounted for. The Mission Board indicates by a number of methods, when a mission's task is illegal. Goody-Two-Shoes don't accept illegal missions... Amirite?

One murder will leave you with a short period of Notoriety, something like 2 hrs per lvl of notoriety. Plus, it's tagged to the exact ship you used to commit the crime, and only with the authority of the controlling faction of the system. Avoiding the offensive ship, or the offended faction should allow that time to pass peacefully. You could keep a criminal ship stored up in some Anarchy system for use when you are going to crime.

The game-play is designed to have a bit of dystopian realism to it. It's in the family of having every ship in an instance start gunning for you, when you hit a clean ship. You should be able to find a guide to "Crimes and Punishment" in ED. That would help you to gronk all of the intricacies of our stellar justice(?) system.
Neither notoriety nor bounties are tied to the ship you use. Bounties used to be, but then it got changed to be personal to the CMDR, but then ships also still get tagged as "hot" just to be additionally confusing. And then illegal missions do exempt you from Notoriety for carrying them out (barring bugs/oversights), as a sort of admission from the game that maybe this wasn't the best idea.

I agree the system is dystopian, but only because it's so flawed that it's hard to imagine a society being functional with it as opposed to it being realistic. I still have no idea what an interstellar factor is supposed to actually be, like, why is the Federation willing to call off its murderbots because I gave money to an anarchy faction in Imperial territory? It's a gameplay-first solution built around multiple conflicting game systems, some of which don't exist anymore.
 
I agree the system is dystopian, but only because it's so flawed that it's hard to imagine a society being functional with it as opposed to it being realistic. I still have no idea what an interstellar factor is supposed to actually be, like, why is the Federation willing to call off its murderbots because I gave money to an anarchy faction in Imperial territory? It's a gameplay-first solution built around multiple conflicting game systems, some of which don't exist anymore.

As I like to say repeatedly, the system makes sense, in very dystopian/cyberpunk way, once you realize that the Pilots Federation is currently the actual “big bad” of the setting, and we’re in charge of the interstellar bounty system. We’re above the law in most of the ways that matter, up to an including setting up enclaves in starports and stations where the lesser powers of the galaxy openly offer us money for treasonous and criminal missions, without fear of sting operations like in the past.

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h242eDB84zY&ab_channel=4KRemasters
 
As I like to say repeatedly, the system makes sense, in very dystopian/cyberpunk way, once you realize that the Pilots Federation is currently the actual “big bad” of the setting, and we’re in charge of the interstellar bounty system. We’re above the law in most of the ways that matter, up to an including setting up enclaves in starports and stations where the lesser powers of the galaxy openly offer us money for treasonous and criminal missions, without fear of sting operations like in the past.

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h242eDB84zY&ab_channel=4KRemasters
I don't think there's any lore to suggest that the PF is supposed to be in charge of all bounties. Not that there's a great deal on the subject anyway, but all I can think of is that'd just make Kill Warrant Scanners even weirder if the PF already oversees all bounties. In general it just seems to be "whatever the local faction says goes", you'd think the PF would exercise that power a lot more otherwise and have that commented on.
 
It's the entire C&P system that needs another rework. It's just all over the place with Odyssey new rules as well.
This one... because...
But to apply it for missions targeting NPCs? Since it's a gameplay-hindering mechanic it seems odd to make it an intrinsic part of the PVE game over and above fines and bounties and reputation hits. Play the game and the game punishes you by making playing the game more difficult?
... on the contrary, I want to get blocked from a faction/superpower when I commit crimes against them.... but I want that to be for a worthwhile reason. I want to be the scourge of the Federation, locked out of every Federal port, because harm comes to the Federation wherever I venture.

But this is Elite: Best Friends. Being Hostile to the Federation is meaningless, and the pathway to the most damage I can deal to Federal factions lies in remaining Friendly or even Allied to them. Meanwhile, Notoriety (i.e being notorious) is purely a punitive state, failing to embrace what it actually means; being well known, generally for bad reasons... or widely and unfavourably known.

Firstly, Notoriety should be Superpower-specific... and secondly, taking high-paid[1] missions brining criminal acts against a faction/superpower should be predicated by having bad rep and notoriety with that faction. Nobody wants Joe Nobody to hurt an enemy... they want the notorious pirate who is feared throughout Federal space and guaranteed to strike fear in the hearts of the enemy when they're seen on scanner.

I wrote this six years ago... some of the thematics have aged, but C&P has been busted at least this long.

Note: And yeah, Odyssey's C&P changes are all just bat guano insane.

[1] As in, significantly better paid than any mission being an Ally would pay
 
It seems there is a galactic database that all the governments have access to that my ship is constantly automagically updating. It doesn't matter if there are any witnesses when I complete a mission or naughty and destroy an innocent. Is my own ship the snitch?
 
Thank you for all the replies!

Plus, it's tagged to the exact ship you used to commit the crime, and only with the authority of the controlling faction of the system.
I wonder if that might be the answer in this case. The guy I had to kill was of the faction that gave me the mission in the first place. Which I did think was odd, but assumed he'd just ed someone off in the plush offices. Whomst among us hasn't?

But that is the controlling faction for the system and for the station I received the job at. So I wonder if this was because I was flying right back into the arms of the faction one of whose dudes I'd just murdered...

Maybe the left hand just doesn't talk to the right hand in that organisation. Whomst among us etc etc.

Goody-Two-Shoes don't accept illegal missions... Amirite?
Oh, absolutely. Of course. I don't even know what any of this thread is about, I was never even here and you can't prove a thing, and so forth.

Did you scan the NPC before shooting?
Normally, a bounty appears and you can shoot without gaining notoriety.

I say "normally" because there have been a few instances when no bounties appeared, even though the mission was legal, possibly related to the fact that the NPC escaped to a system where the bounty wouldn't be applicable (but still doesn't make much sense to me 🤔)
Hmm. It might be a factor, though I've done an assassination job before - my only other one so far - where the guy ran and I caught up with him. But there I just got a fine which I paid off at the station with no issues.

Do we actually have a KWS equivalent for foot scanner? I don't think we do, but I may be wrong.
Not that I'm aware of as a piece of equipment - though I could scan from an SRV. I usually approach using one anyway, to keep my ship clear of stray sustained anti-aircraft artillery barrages.

I don't know much about that because one of the many advantages of using Apex is that they never flee, so that never happens to me :)
Ooo. Interesting. I'll keep that in mind!

I still have no idea what an interstellar factor is supposed to actually be, like, why is the Federation willing to call off its murderbots because I gave money to an anarchy faction in Imperial territory? It's a gameplay-first solution built around multiple conflicting game systems, some of which don't exist anymore.
I've always head-canoned the interstellar factors as specialist hackers and forgers. You give them money and they crack databases and stuff and get your record cleared. Related head-reckoning for me (I don't know if lore addresses it) has always been that there are no interstellar direct EM communications because it takes light too long to get anywhere, so the entire galactic database and communication network operates on basically data sticks being carried around through witch-space - which I assume is the point of all the courier missions. So I can only assume that the factors are able to create false data sticks that then get couriered out and injected into the real system's circulation.

But...

It seems there is a galactic database that all the governments have access to that my ship is constantly automagically updating. It doesn't matter if there are any witnesses when I complete a mission or naughty and destroy an innocent. Is my own ship the snitch?
It does fox me a bit that the whole universe knows about a crime the moment I do it and when there was no-one around to see it. As you say, it seems like it can only be our own ship - but then, how does it send a signal that's going to get anywhere, even in most of the same system, before you do?
 
I've no problem with notoriety or hounties as I've done enough illegal stuff in the game that I have this side of things worked out.

That's not an ideal thing personally. Effectively, because I intentionally go out with the express purpose of repeatedly doing crime I have an easier ride. However there's one thing that does worry me when I do something- fines. Punishments for minor infractions are a nightmare when you have notoriety. Under the current rules, bounties can be paid off by handing yourself in, at the cost of having ships impounded and having to pay a fair amount to get them back. Fair enough.

With a fine there's no paying that off and I'm frozen out until notoriety is gone. So if you ever accidentally hit a clean ship and get a fine for it, you better remember to finish the job and murder the target so you can pay off a bounty and still use the faction's stations.
 
With a fine there's no paying that off and I'm frozen out until notoriety is gone. So if you ever accidentally hit a clean ship and get a fine for it, you better remember to finish the job and murder the target so you can pay off a bounty and still use the faction's stations.
This is something Odyssey screwed up royally. You used to be able to pay fines when notorious, which made complete sense since as fines are only accrued through non-aggressive actions... and specifically when notorious
  • If you were not wanted and got a fine, you'd get a fine, and could still pay it off.
  • If you were wanted and got a fine, it would accumulate onto your existing bounty and could not be paid off due to notoriety.

Then there's all that other insanity where someone got their bounty (wanted) flag confused with bounty (vouchers) and so instead of:
  • (Horizons) Can't claim bounty vouchers through an IF where the faction is present, but can pay off bounties (wanted) at the IF if the faction is present.... we now have
  • (Odyssey) Can claim bounty vouchers through an IF where the faction is present, but can't pay off bounties (wanted) at the IF if the faction is present.

It's a direct flip of the two logics and a blatant bug.
 
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I don't think there's any lore to suggest that the PF is supposed to be in charge of all bounties. Not that there's a great deal on the subject anyway, but all I can think of is that'd just make Kill Warrant Scanners even weirder if the PF already oversees all bounties. In general it just seems to be "whatever the local faction says goes", you'd think the PF would exercise that power a lot more otherwise and have that commented on.

It dates all the way back earliest games in the franchise. Local governments registered bounties with the Pilots Federation, back when it was just a trade union of transport pilots, with the understanding that its members would be the best ones able to pursue those bounties beyond the local system. In those earlier games (set before about 3250 CE) Commanders could also take illegal missions on a station’s message board… assuming it wasn’t a sting operation by local security forces. The Superpowers also used hire the PF members to do their dirty work during their Cold War.

Some time in the last 60 years, those criminal missions went from risky side hustles performed by rogue members to being blatantly advertised on the Pilots Federation controlled mission boards and in Pilots Federation station enclaves. The overall feeling I get from the current (and past) Crime and Punishment rules, PowerPlay rules, how the message board (and Pilots Federation enclaves) work, and everything else is that the Pilots Federation has went from a trade untion of transport pilots to a kind of "Crimes R Us" power-broker, and that the various Superpowers are fine with that because it gives them access to skilled pilots of negotiable morality to do their dirty work for them... and it also gives them an unassailable cover for their own agents who just can find a way to join the Pilots Federation.

It's a direct consequence of Elite Dangerous shifting the focus from a single player game where the Commander is struggling against a hostile Galaxy, to a multi-player game that's caters to the "I want it NOW!" crowd. Having criminal actions have actual consequences was, and continues to be, immensely unpopular to the general playerbase. Which is why we have the tepid criminal gameplay, where a Commander is essentially above the law, we have today.
 
Having criminal actions have actual consequences was, and continues to be, immensely unpopular to the general playerbase. Which is why we have the tepid criminal gameplay, where a Commander is essentially above the law, we have today.
This is simply not true.

Rather, FD knows they can't punish crimes when the rewards of crime are virtually non existent, and their c&p system hurts those who are least capable of dealing with it.

At this point, you might as well just remove crime. Make players ships and bullets clip through each other, and remove criminal missions/ black markets. It wouldn't make a lick of difference.

Crime is all about risk vs reward, and right now there's simply no reward.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
This is simply not true.

Rather, FD knows they can't punish crimes when the rewards of crime are virtually non existent, and their c&p system hurts those who are least capable of dealing with it.

At this point, you might as well just remove crime. Make players ships and bullets clip through each other, and remove criminal missions/ black markets. It wouldn't make a lick of difference.

Crime is all about risk vs reward, and right now there's simply no reward.
There isn't much risk either TBH
 
Just theoretically, could it be an illegal mission?
Also, if i remember correctly, you should be able to talk and complete the mission with the NPC who gave it to you, regardless bounties, notoriety or whatever you have.
Not to mention, that we don't have to sit and wait, the bubble is huge.
 
It does fox me a bit that the whole universe knows about a crime the moment I do it and when there was no-one around to see it. As you say, it seems like it can only be our own ship - but then, how does it send a signal that's going to get anywhere, even in most of the same system, before you do?
I always told myself its the ship that tattles on you...I mean, what else was around when you did the deeds. Scan (major factions pay for the 'enhanced security measure') and KWS just tap into the backdoor that all manufacturers are required to include and voila, you are seen.

edit: this also worked better with the hot ship concept. switch ships and it tells the scanner a different story.
 
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