Notoriety - The negative outcome on NPC combat related gameplay?

[NeilF]

I raised earlier today some issue(s) I think there are with Notoriety. Now I believe this new figure goes up not just for illegal CMDR destruction (surely it's primarly purpose), but also for NPCs I believe.

Now this is fine in many scenarions, but to my mind it does introduces some interesting issues, and possible counter producting outcomes. eg:-

Assassination Missions
If someone enjoys doing (NPC) assissination missions is the goal to start levelling a huge rebuy/negative outcome on them?

New Megaship Raids
If folks want to take part in the new Megaship raids in a more pew pew manner, fair enough they'll get bounties etc, but do we really want to see the game levelling a huge rebuy/negative outcome on them if they enjoy doing them?


And I suspect there's other times it would be beneficial to allow a CMDR to fight NPCs in the knowledge it's for fun, and should he blow them up, there's not snowballing rebuys on the horizon etc.

Ultimately, is the game risking applying a mechanics in cases where it would be best not to?


Suggestion
In the past I've suggested missions for PvP related gameplay allow illegal destruction with the mission itself offering to cover up the destruction so the CMDR is not held accountable.

Might it not be more appealling if a missions such as an assassination, or to go and steal something from a Megaship, offers to cover up any illegal destructions (of NPCs)? So you could play the mission and you might come out with a bounty, but not an increase in Notoriety with the outcomes that means?


Note: Or are FD already on the case with some of this. eg: Assassinations of NPCs do not increase Notoriety?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I always say that if you have a high notoriety level, NPC traders drop cargo when you scan them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I always say that if you have a high notoriety level, NPC traders drop cargo when you scan them.

Hmm, yeah, wondering if there should be some positives to having a high notoriety as you suggested.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Hmm, yeah, wondering if there should be some positives to having a high notoriety as you suggested.

Others:

Better prices at black markets

Lower rank security might run off in low sec systems

More aggressive ATC responses when on comms

Anarchy ATC might congratulate you / venerate you

 

[NeilF]

I always say that if you have a high notoriety level, NPC traders drop cargo when you scan them.

Others:

Better prices at black markets

Lower rank security might run off in low sec systems

More aggressive ATC responses when on comms

Anarchy ATC might congratulate you / venerate you

Although these are in effect the exact opposite point of my post... They're good ideas!

HOWEVER, not entirely sure such mechanics (rewards) should be based on the Notoriety of destroying other CMDRs? Seems odd to reward the exact thing FD are trying to rein in?

Maybe base it on a form of Notoriety of non-CMDR murder bounties maybe?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Although these are in effect the exact opposite point of my post... They're good ideas!

HOWEVER, not entirely sure such mechanics (rewards) should be based on the Notoriety of destroying other CMDRs? Seems odd to reward the exact thing FD are trying to rein in?

Maybe base it on a form of Notoriety of non-CMDR murder bounties maybe?

Notoriety is notoriety, it matters not where it comes from.

 

[Arthur Shappey]

I am, personally, massively pro there being no gaming difference between the penalties of killing an NPC or a player. I would rather the mechanics were designed this way.

 

[NeilF]

Notoriety is notoriety, it matters not where it comes from.

Understood, but if you're giving out benefits for something (eg: Better prices at black markets), would you really want that to be given for seal clubbing?

Notoriety IMHO at the moment is trying to cater for two or more things, thus is at risk of being beneficial and an issue at the same time.

It's trying to penalise ganking of CMDRs but at the same time risk needlessly penalising assassination missions.

We want to offer some considered criminal bonuses to it for criminal activity, but it doesn't measure criminal activity, instead just illegal destruction.

It's like we have on measure where we need a number of them.

eg:-
Murder Notoriety: Increases with illegal destructions
Criminal Notoriety: Increases with outstanding bounties

I am, personally, massively pro there being no gaming difference between the penalties of killing an NPC or a player. I would rather the mechanics were designed this way.

Agreed, but we must admit at times some players may want to go into a PvE scenario simply guns blazing? And if this means they rack up a damaging notoriety value (from NPC destructions) this seems counter productive to me? Hence the suggestion of FD at least offering a means to offer it with missions offering to cover up "murders"?

 

[Faded Glory]

Personally, I think you are right that the new C&P system may have some unwanted ramifications.

At the moment, 'crimes' against NPC's are relatively trivial (as they probably should be), and don't impact gameplay overly severely. You might get a bounty hunter or two after you, but they become wanted when they attack you assuming you aren't in the system where you are wanted, so it's just more legitimate pew pew.

The problem is, in order to try and deter unwanted PK'ing, FD are trying to use the same tools as they are going to use against very much acceptable 'criminal' gameplay.

I reckon there are quite a lot of players who already don't engage in 'criminal' activity for role play reasons. Ok, I don't know if it's a lot, but I know I do it, and I'm pretty sure others do too. The most I'm willing to accept is an 8 minute bounty for trespass. I don't even shoot clean skimmers! It's not that I'm afraid of the consequences, there aren't really any, just that my CMDR isn't a murderer. So, if bounties / notoriety become something that has a potentially detrimental affect on a person's gameplay, (which IMO it must have if it is to reign in the one aspect of criminal gameplay that FD want it to, unwarranted PK'ing), then players will start to forego the acceptable criminal gameplay because the consequences will stop being fun.

Obviously we'll have to see how things pan out, but bounties went from being superpower wide to minor faction based, and presumably that was for a reason and I can only assume that the reason has something to do with not making criminals (against NPC's) stop playing the game. They have always had timers from what I can recall, so FD presumably didn't want them to be a long term 'punishment' hanging over players.

Now the timer has gone, but you can pay it off any time! Ok, it'll cost credits, but I don't think credits are an obstacle to anything in this game. Yes, your notoriety will continue to grow, so eventually, after robbing a few megaships, perhaps doing a couple of base assaults and maybe destroying a few clean skimmers (I'm exaggerating...) you're going to find yourself on the pointy end of an ATR squad. Well, I suppose that might be fun, I don't really know...

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Notoriety is notoriety, it matters not where it comes from.

You have a choice for room-mates. A notorious murdered or a notorious parking violator.

Which do you chose?

 

[GG7]

I'll save any comments on this until AFTER the Beta drops.

 

[Arthur Shappey]

...
Agreed, but we must admit at times some players may want to go into a PvE scenario simply guns blazing? And if this means they rack up a damaging notoriety value (from NPC destructions) this seems counter productive to me? Hence the suggestion of FD at least offering a means to offer it with missions offering to cover up "murders"?

What you see as a problem, I see as a fun consequence! This is not, after all, for killing "wanted" NPCs or players. And if an assassination mission requires you killing a "clean" NPC or Player, then the rewards may need to be "upped" to be worth the increased consequences.

I've never been a fan of murdering being cheap...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Understood, but if you're giving out benefits for something (eg: Better prices at black markets), would you really want that to be given for seal clubbing?

Notoriety IMHO at the moment is trying to cater for two or more things, thus is at risk of being beneficial and an issue at the same time.

It's trying to penalise ganking of CMDRs but at the same time risk needlessly penalising assassination missions.

We want to offer some considered criminal bonuses to it for criminal activity, but it doesn't measure criminal activity, instead just illegal destruction.

It's like we have on measure where we need a number of them.

eg:-
Murder Notoriety: Increases with illegal destructions
Criminal Notoriety: Increases with outstanding bounties

Tough one, but with the new C&P system I would hope that seal clubbing is not as prevalent. I suppose we should see how it goes first. Maybe not have too many positives.

You have a choice for room-mates. A notorious murdered or a notorious parking violator.

Which do you chose?

Which ever will do the job better. Personally I would wing up with people I know and trust.

 

[Notwyn]

I think earning notoriety should be the same across the board, NPC or player.

If you want to do the odd well paid assassination mission just do a few positive type missions to balance it out. If you want to do "just" assassination missions then it makes sense that your notoriety goes in the toilet.

I'm looking forward to the beta to see how this all plays out.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Although these are in effect the exact opposite point of my post... They're good ideas!

HOWEVER, not entirely sure such mechanics (rewards) should be based on the Notoriety of destroying other CMDRs? Seems odd to reward the exact thing FD are trying to rein in?

Maybe base it on a form of Notoriety of non-CMDR murder bounties maybe?

I think these ideas do reward the play that FD want stopped, but then I find it hard having so many clauses and rules for players and not NPCs. In my head I'd rather have one set of rules for everyone, and that the game morphs around your behaviour.

But then there are many ways to provide tools for people who feel threatened- I posted an idea for a 'panic' alarm where pilots could press it if they are being attacked by other players (but penalised if misused). With that in place, it keeps the 'one rule for them all' intact, and gives players who feel a player attack is unwarranted an in game way of trying to sort it out, but not use it as a crutch with NPCs.

In the end there is only so much you can do before the player loses agency.

 

[Faded Glory]

I think earning notoriety should be the same across the board, NPC or player.

If you want to do the odd well paid assassination mission just do a few positive type missions to balance it out. If you want to do "just" assassination missions then it makes sense that your notoriety goes in the toilet.

I'm looking forward to the beta to see how this all plays out.

Not sure it works that way. As I understand it, the only way to clear your notoriety is to be sent to the re-buy screen, it's not like reputation.

You are right that if you choose to be a murderhobo against NPC's then you should be notorious, but I suspect the notoriety that is anticipated by some is at odds with what it has to be if it's to deter unwanted PK'ing (and is the same thing).

 

[Kaocraft]

The notoriety thing is GTA's five star wanted rating, but in slow motion. It needs to be consistent and universal. The idea behind it is not specifically to deter PvP. It is to introduce a lasting sense of consequence for engaging in criminal activity. It is a way for you to "become" a criminal, with all of the challenges and risks that it brings.

And yes, it will absolutely alter the value proposition of taking on an assassination mission or robbing a freighter. This isn't necessarily a problem unless Frontier are unable to make the rewards worth the risk. Most players will want to refrain from murdering NPCs, or at least think twice about it. And that's not a bad thing.

 

[Quantis Trap]

This is one of the things I'll be looking at in the beta. On one hand, I don't like the idea of notoriety going up with NPC kills and on the other hand it's a little immersion breaking to have NPCs be considered less valuable.

I'll have to see!

 

[The Chairmaker]

Surely its a case of frontier giving player killing a higher notoriety score than npc murder.

So killing a player gives 5 points, killing an npc gives 1 point.

 

[insanephoton]

You have a choice for room-mates. A notorious murdered or a notorious parking violator.

Which do you chose?

The notorious murdered every time, since they are already dead they won't object to being removed. I guess you meant murderer, in which case it depends on what their motivation to murder people was. If it was for reason that were unlikely to be an issue, then the murderer would still likely be a better option than the parking violator, who may have little regard for anyone other than themselves.