NPC combat flight behaviour

One of the more recent major updates (I think it was either 2.1 or 2.2) upgraded the combat AI of NPCs. We all immediately noticed how they behaved more aggressively, but only now has it become clear to me what has actually changed under the hood. For a long time I though my observations were just the result of high level NPCs in large ships having to fight me in also a large ship (Python), but after flying my Eagle again after so long I realized the same happens regardless.

NPCs will attempt to bring their forward guns to bear at all cost. No matter the opponent, no matter the difference in ship sizes or firepower, all they are concerned with is facing you head on and firing. Where formerly they would switch between different modes, e.g. jousting attack, evasive maneuvres, getting behind the opponent etc, it now seems these have all been replaced with a single maneuvre: ignore positioning entirely and care only about turning the nose towards the enemy.

This leads to various odd, sometimes hilarious, sometimes annoying situations:

* You will see small ships exchange fire head-on against much larger, more powerful ships, while they eat a lot of damage, too.
* They will utilize vertical, lateral and reverse thrust very proficiently, but only in order to turn around as quickly as possible with as little actual movement as possible.
* Since they do not attempt to avoid being in your line of fire, to the player it sometimes looks like the NPC is not moving at all (relative to the player's view).
* Remember when MOM announced that she had a solution against reverski? Well that solution turned out to be that NPCs now do the reverski maneuvre as well.
* When you are in a big ship, you can often literally sit there in a standstill and just fire away. Even a smaller NPC will not try to evade and fly around you primarily, they will stay in your sights, turning around to fire back.
* Agility and speed seems to have become less important, raw firepower and durability primarily determine the course of a fight most of the time.

While all of this makes the NPCs seem more aggressive, it also makes them seem much less intelligent and, more importantly, varied and flexible than before. I remember the old times when I had chases through asteroid fields, flying an Eagle or a Cobra, staying on a Cobra's 6. Now the Cobra might just reverski and not even attempt to get away or fly a loop around me.
 
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Not true
I'm doing atm cop-killing in my Corvette and eagles or Viper MK.IV are always on my tail. If i try to get them in front of me for the huge guns, they try evasive maneuvers.
The behavior you describe happens only if you constantly face-tank.

My experience so far is:
Reverski most of the time at stupid speeds (Anacondas with 200m/s reverski)
If you boost, they boost also and make an insane fast turn to get on ypur tail. When you make FAoff turn to face them, they evade and flee. After that they turn around and do reverski until you exceed their insane reverse speed and the loop starts again.

The NPC's in generel adopt your fight-style. Having always 4-0-2 will result in a complete different fight than 1 1/2 - 1 1/2 - 3 or than 0-3-3

It also depends heavily on the rank of your opponent. Deadly and Elite npc's will move completely different than master or experts.
 
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Went up against a Deadly or Elite FAS yesterday in my Python, and observed different behavior. Early on, yes the NPC was basically coming at me head on. But once I stripped his shields and about half of his hull (he was definitely a hull tank), the tactic changed dramatically. Instead of frontal assaults the NPC suddenly became very adept at staying in my blind spot behind me. Never observed the behavior before, or maybe not to this degree. By the time I figured out what he was doing, he had done a fair amount of damage to my shields.

I ended up having to do boosted turns and some other erratic moves to get my guns on him and finish him off. Quite the experience for a combat hack such as myself.
 
I would agree that this sums up the majority of AI behaviour at the moment. You do still get some ships that try jousting etc. (and only jousting, if you get one of these), but usually they just constantly try to turn towards you ( so much so that they'll make no effort to break free if you ram them and remain touching, they just keep turning into you).

This frequently makes every fight turn into who has the strongest shields or the most dakka.
 
Not true
I'm doing atm cop-killing in my Corvette and eagles or Viper MK.IV are always on my tail. If i try to get them in front of me for the huge guns, they try evasive maneuvers.
The behavior you describe happens only if you constantly face-tank.

My experience so far is:
Reverski most of the time at stupid speeds (Anacondas with 200m/s reverski)
If you boost, they boost also and make an insane fast turn to get on ypur tail. When you make FAoff turn to face them, they evade and flee. After that they turn around and do reverski until you exceed their insane reverse speed and the loop starts again.

The NPC's in generel adopt your fight-style. Having always 4-0-2 will result in a complete different fight than 1 1/2 - 1 1/2 - 3 or than 0-3-3

It also depends heavily on the rank of your opponent. Deadly and Elite npc's will move completely different than master or experts.

Went up against a Deadly or Elite FAS yesterday in my Python, and observed different behavior. Early on, yes the NPC was basically coming at me head on. But once I stripped his shields and about half of his hull (he was definitely a hull tank), the tactic changed dramatically. Instead of frontal assaults the NPC suddenly became very adept at staying in my blind spot behind me. Never observed the behavior before, or maybe not to this degree. By the time I figured out what he was doing, he had done a fair amount of damage to my shields.

I ended up having to do boosted turns and some other erratic moves to get my guns on him and finish him off. Quite the experience for a combat hack such as myself.

Are you both sure the NPCs are actually trying to out-turn you? Whenever it happens that an NPC gets out of my sight, it alway seems to be a side-effect of them just trying to point their nose at me, i.e. depending on their orientation and speed they may have to accelerate first (e.g. into the blue zone) before starting the turn.
 
NPC's also have predispositions as to type of ship. Federal ships tend to attack head a large proportion of the time, as do Anacondas, Clippers and Cutters.

The FDL will maneuver as do the small ships. I have noticed the FDL and smalls jink to break target lock and small/medium ships, Eagles particularly, will camp out on your tail if you are engaged w/ another NPC.

Which leads to another issue, rear firing weapons on large ships, why not?

All in all, better NPC behavior is appreciated but still could be turned up.
 
it was fun. I'd 'just' be about to open fire on the NPC as I'm doing a max turn, when I'd see him boost towards my tail and away from my guns. It's basically like a turning knife-fight in F16s. Very similar. It was obvious the FAS could turn inside me, so other tactics were necessary.

In my vette, my fighter will distract the NPC long enough for me to bring the big guns back into play. Most don't last very long after that. :)

For condas who like to face tank (which I can handle no problem, but it's boring), I get my vette's nose under theirs and lift them up such that I can get my nose on their belly and gut them with the C4 beams. :)
 
Are you both sure the NPCs are actually trying to out-turn you? Whenever it happens that an NPC gets out of my sight, it alway seems to be a side-effect of them just trying to point their nose at me, i.e. depending on their orientation and speed they may have to accelerate first (e.g. into the blue zone) before starting the turn.

Yes definitly not just an side effect. I have also seen that they try to keep distance at exact 1km

Also they change behavior COMPLETELY if you break yourself the target lock and fight them only on sight with fixed weapons. Than they feel more alive, realistic and not alias nostradamus knowing where you point at before you know.
 
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NPC's also have predispositions as to type of ship. Federal ships tend to attack head a large proportion of the time, as do Anacondas, Clippers and Cutters.

The FDL will maneuver as do the small ships. I have noticed the FDL and smalls jink to break target lock and small/medium ships, Eagles particularly, will camp out on your tail if you are engaged w/ another NPC.

Which leads to another issue, rear firing weapons on large ships, why not?

All in all, better NPC behavior is appreciated but still could be turned up.

Rear firing weapons are turrets on "fire at will" but they are mostly completely useless. Or you use multicrew gunner...
 
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The AI is well programed , its just seems to be hold back by artificial limitations on it.
The AI of course needs a lot of work , but in most games the AI is rubbish.

They either go up to you shooting and then fly away and try again , or simply fly around you trying to shoot.

The only game that I think had perfect AI was Xwing , TieFighter and Xwing alliance. (legend has it that TieFighters top AI read players input)
 
Also they change behavior COMPLETELY if you break yourself the target lock and fight them only on sight with fixed weapons. Than they feel more alive, realistic and not alias nostradamus knowing where you point at before you know.

I have gimbal mounted weps on the Python and when up against a NPC that deploys chaff I immediately drop target lock and engage as best I can that way (basically fixed weps at that point). Same with the C4 beams on my vette. And yes, I too noticed different behavior from the NPCs once I do that.
 
I agree. Turretting while trying to maintain 1 to 1.5 km range is their basic mode. But they also have a catalogue of (short) diversions like: boosting past you, strafing sideways, wobbling up/down and sideways, running away, etc. After completing a diversion they return to turretting again. The diversions seem to depend on the ship type and loadout and are triggered by certain conditions like: shield/hull strength (yours and theirs), range-to-target, etc.

Have you noticed that since 2.1 or 2.2 (not sure) they almost never fly a normal turn anymore? (Only low-ranked NPCs still fly turns) Instead they rotate their nose towards you completely independent from their direction of movement. As a result tactical manoeuvring is all but removed from combat. The easiest way to destroy them is to build a shield tank with good sustained DPS and simply fly straight at them and hose them down. Without a big shield to hide behind the only option is to boost continuously while circle-strafing them so you can beat their pitch rate, that's how NPCs fight among themselves too (as do PvPers BTW if Youtube is anything to go by but they are more creative).

All in all I find combat in ED not much fun anymore and a far cry from the "exciting turning fights like in WW2" FD talked about during Kickstarter.
 
I agree. Turretting while trying to maintain 1 to 1.5 km range is their basic mode. But they also have a catalogue of (short) diversions like: boosting past you, strafing sideways, wobbling up/down and sideways, running away, etc. After completing a diversion they return to turretting again. The diversions seem to depend on the ship type and loadout and are triggered by certain conditions like: shield/hull strength (yours and theirs), range-to-target, etc.

Have you noticed that since 2.1 or 2.2 (not sure) they almost never fly a normal turn anymore? (Only low-ranked NPCs still fly turns) Instead they rotate their nose towards you completely independent from their direction of movement. As a result tactical manoeuvring is all but removed from combat. The easiest way to destroy them is to build a shield tank with good sustained DPS and simply fly straight at them and hose them down. Without a big shield to hide behind the only option is to boost continuously while circle-strafing them so you can beat their pitch rate, that's how NPCs fight among themselves too (as do PvPers BTW if Youtube is anything to go by but they are more creative).

All in all I find combat in ED not much fun anymore and a far cry from the "exciting turning fights like in WW2" FD talked about during Kickstarter.

It is interesting that some share my observations (thanks for mentioning "turreting", this best describes my observations), while others experience the complete opposite.

I think both observations must be true and there may be more at play here which leads to some of us seeing more varied and interesting behaviour and some of us seeing NPCs turreting all the time.
 
I agree. Turretting while trying to maintain 1 to 1.5 km range is their basic mode. But they also have a catalogue of (short) diversions like: boosting past you, strafing sideways, wobbling up/down and sideways, running away, etc. After completing a diversion they return to turretting again. The diversions seem to depend on the ship type and loadout and are triggered by certain conditions like: shield/hull strength (yours and theirs), range-to-target, etc.

Have you noticed that since 2.1 or 2.2 (not sure) they almost never fly a normal turn anymore? (Only low-ranked NPCs still fly turns) Instead they rotate their nose towards you completely independent from their direction of movement. As a result tactical manoeuvring is all but removed from combat. The easiest way to destroy them is to build a shield tank with good sustained DPS and simply fly straight at them and hose them down. Without a big shield to hide behind the only option is to boost continuously while circle-strafing them so you can beat their pitch rate, that's how NPCs fight among themselves too (as do PvPers BTW if Youtube is anything to go by but they are more creative).

All in all I find combat in ED not much fun anymore and a far cry from the "exciting turning fights like in WW2" FD talked about during Kickstarter.

True that. While entertaining to a degree I much prefer dogfighting in a Spit or P-51 where gravity, atmosphere, and drag all affect your maneuvers. Kind of hard to do a split-s in a spaceship. Or rather, why would one bother I guess?
 
Yes definitly not just an side effect. I have also seen that they try to keep distance at exact 1km

Also they change behavior COMPLETELY if you break yourself the target lock and fight them only on sight with fixed weapons. Than they feel more alive, realistic and not alias nostradamus knowing where you point at before you know.

I have gimbal mounted weps on the Python and when up against a NPC that deploys chaff I immediately drop target lock and engage as best I can that way (basically fixed weps at that point). Same with the C4 beams on my vette. And yes, I too noticed different behavior from the NPCs once I do that.

I never noticed any difference other than NPCs using chaff when I have gimballed weapons. What you see is probably a side effect from you yourself flying differently. With gimballed weapons you will automatically fly very different lines that with fixed weapons because you don't have to point the nose at the target in order to hit it.
 
It is interesting that some share my observations (thanks for mentioning "turreting", this best describes my observations), while others experience the complete opposite.

I think both observations must be true and there may be more at play here which leads to some of us seeing more varied and interesting behaviour and some of us seeing NPCs turreting all the time.


Just a point of clarification: I have only seen this behavour in Deadly and Elite NPCs, and only recently, i.e., within the last few weeks. Or...maybe it just took me this long to take note of their flying characteristics as early on I was to busy trying not to die... :D
 
True that. While entertaining to a degree I much prefer dogfighting in a Spit or P-51 where gravity, atmosphere, and drag all affect your maneuvers. Kind of hard to do a split-s in a spaceship. Or rather, why would one bother I guess?

When planets with an atmosphere come to the game we might see better combat manoeuvring again (I hope).
 
It is interesting that some share my observations (thanks for mentioning "turreting", this best describes my observations), while others experience the complete opposite.

I think both observations must be true and there may be more at play here which leads to some of us seeing more varied and interesting behaviour and some of us seeing NPCs turreting all the time.

True, but what you see is influenced strongly by your expectations. I once wrote a simple attack aircraft simulation for a military trainer. The simulated aircraft did nothing other than fly along a preplanned route and drop a bomb at every target in a 30 degree cone in front of it. The ground targets were placed and defended by the trainees. I was very surprised when the trainees were certain they saw the aircraft fly all kinds of attack patterns and do "smart" target prioritisations while I never programmed that into the simulation. They saw the aircraft do what their training had taught them attack aircraft do, not what they really did. Anyway, it was a welcome surprise that saved me a lot of time :). I'm sure game developers use such effects too.
 
Rear firing weapons are turrets on "fire at will" but they are mostly completely useless. Or you use multicrew gunner...



I meant actual, rear mounted weapons w/ larger lines of sight.

As for muilti-crew, don't use it or fighters.

Just my style, everyone to their own.
 
True, but what you see is influenced strongly by your expectations. I once wrote a simple attack aircraft simulation for a military trainer. The simulated aircraft did nothing other than fly along a preplanned route and drop a bomb at every target in a 30 degree cone in front of it. The ground targets were placed and defended by the trainees. I was very surprised when the trainees were certain they saw the aircraft fly all kinds of attack patterns and do "smart" target prioritisations while I never programmed that into the simulation. They saw the aircraft do what their training had taught them attack aircraft do, not what they really did. Anyway, it was a welcome surprise that saved me a lot of time :). I'm sure game developers use such effects too.

Self modifying code? ;)
 
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