Offline Mode - A Solution and Proposal to FD

[Tettric]

The game is much more heavily online than you realise and I can tell you for certain the FD did not drop offline so they could show you in game ads.

The game reports your location to the server every time you jump between systems. Probably to prevent cheating and ensure that if you crash your online save will put you back where you were.

Every time you scoop minerals while mining the server is informed.

Every time you dock/undock and every time you enter/exit supercriuse the server is informed.

As well as this the stellar forge software (responsible for the generation of the galaxy along with texture for planets and the skybox) is (as you may imagine) no small thing.
As of now generation of the galaxy is done my FDs servers and the information about the system you are in (or are viewing in the system map) is downloaded.

I'm not certain about how having to generate the star system you're jumping to along with textures would effect performance but I'm sure it wouldn't be good. In the end the galaxy always have to be generated as it is far to vast to be stored, unlike a world in Minecraft for example.

So as the devs say, while it was expected that a fully offline mode wouldn't be a problem, you can see just how much effort and time would have to go into it.

 

[igor37]

I'm not certain about how having to generate the star system you're jumping to along with textures would effect performance but I'm sure it wouldn't be good. In the end the galaxy always have to be generated as it is far to vast to be stored, unlike a world in Minecraft for example.

"Generating" a star system in this game involves just a few random numbers, and if the textures for every planet are really procedurally generated then that's not a huge problem either, creating a texture in realtime with an efficient algorithm is fast and doesn't really impress any CPU. The only thing that really prevents them from releasing an offline mode is the huge space that you'd need on the hard drive. But some manufacturers already aim to produce the first 100TB drives before 2020, so at least in the future it shouldn't be a problem to create a private server software together with a fraction of star systems(you won't visit all of them in a lifetime anyways). And guess what, it would run just fine. But for now it's not possible yet on PCs and also a single player game probably isn't what Frontier aimed for.

 

[Knot2clever]

You've had your refund, is your life so lacking you have to hang around like a bad smell.

 

[Tettric]

"Generating" a star system in this game involves just a few random numbers, and if the textures for every planet are really procedurally generated then that's not a huge problem either, creating a texture in realtime with an efficient algorithm is fast and doesn't really impress any CPU. The only thing that really prevents them from releasing an offline mode is the huge space that you'd need on the hard drive. But some manufacturers already aim to produce the first 100TB drives before 2020, so at least in the future it shouldn't be a problem to create a private server software together with a fraction of star systems(you won't visit all of them in a lifetime anyways). And guess what, it would run just fine. But for now it's not possible yet on PCs and also a single player game probably isn't what Frontier aimed for.

Actually it involves using the galaxy seed and then running that through all sorts of algorithms that decide what sort of planets will appear at what distances from the sun and apply all other scientific theory modeled in the galaxy simulation.

The texture generation is also not as trivial as you make out. While you can just generate a random texture quite easily random textures are not what is required. The system has to generate a texture with land masses with hills and mountains that make sense to our understanding of the universe. They have to have the right colours based on their generated chemical composition and they have to translate well to bump mapping.

As well as this you don't seem to understand that one of the main reasons for generating the systems is so that they do not have to be stored while inactive so the problem is not hard drive space.

 

[James Son]

I too wanted the offline mode and spoke about it in another thread which was closed by a moderator (understandably) when a flame war started. What many pure on-liners do not understand is that many off-liners (even the ones that are too loud) still keep coming to the forums simply because they LOVE THE CONCEPT and just still have hope. During the KS days, there were hints about off-line so people expected it would become a reality at some point. IMO, not delivering it caused unnecessary tension in the community. It would be better if something was delivered, even if it was inferior to on-line. It didn't have to be 400 billion stars. Even 2000 might be enough. One might get bored after a while but that's life and that's off-line. Take or leave it (but at least there would be something).

Being a developer myself, i can understand the concept of "too hard to create something" but most of the time it means "i don't have the time or resources to complete the project". With all the money Frontier has accumulated from KS and all the supporters, not delivering something in the off-line front (and categorically denying any hope of ever seeing one) seems like an insult to many people (which BTW supported Frontier, many with substantial amounts of money). They could have said other things (i.e. "too hard to fix now, maybe next year" or "we have off-line but you must be online in order to start a new game" or "we have the client ready but don't have the time to create an off-line server, perhaps the community is interested in an opensource project"), but they decided to kill it.

Personally, even though i'm disappointed, i started playing the online mode. After considering what to do for almost a month, i decided not to ask for a refund but just play it. As Sentinel pointed out, the constant updating is somewhat irritating but i think it's necessary, especially in these early stages. The fact that i was out-of town for about 3 weeks (work-related), without a constant internet connection available (so i couldn't play E: D at all) was even more irritating though. As i see it, dumping off-line mode completely and categorically took some fun out of the game and enthusiasm out of a not-so-small part of the community.

 

[Tinman]

To establish some facts, or what I believe to be facts:

- It's clear that people don't want DRM etc as that was a promise on the KS.
- The online mode is simply to update the market place etc for trading - as what else is done behind the scenes ?
- The online mode is to allow in game adverts, if not now, at some point.

These aren't facts.

 

[Tryst]

Actually it involves using the galaxy seed and then running that through all sorts of algorithms that decide what sort of planets will appear at what distances from the sun and apply all other scientific theory modeled in the galaxy simulation.

The texture generation is also not as trivial as you make out. While you can just generate a random texture quite easily random textures are not what is required. The system has to generate a texture with land masses with hills and mountains that make sense to our understanding of the universe. They have to have the right colours based on their generated chemical composition and they have to translate well to bump mapping.

As well as this you don't seem to understand that one of the main reasons for generating the systems is so that they do not have to be stored while inactive so the problem is not hard drive space.

I have seen games where the graphics are much heavier than this. Rendering has to be done far more accurately for trees, bushes, houses and even down the the texture on a single brick. Most graphics you see in elite wouldn't even phase a modern computer and the only reason so many terrabytes of data is needed on the server is that it has to keep the data for several people at once. A single player isn't going to be in two places at the same time so there isn't much data to store for each player. If the data is downloaded even on a 20meg connection to show an entire galaxy during your hyperspace jump, It can't be that much so, storing it on a hard dive isn't really going to be a problem. Doing the calculations for a modern processor isn't really a big deal either. Remember, the server rack is nothing more than a PC anyway and each rack probably handles several players at once, (unless they miraculously went way into the future and brought back processors that are light years ahead of those used in PC's today).

Although the graphics were not nearly as good, (neither were the processors), when the original Elite games were about, on Frontier and First Encounter, we had planetary landings too with no break between space and planet when you approached them. Those backwater processors running at 4megahertz we had back then seemed to manage that OK - and we didn't have special graphics processors back then either, the main processor handled it all and managed to get the client and all the data in just 512K of memory, (64K for the original Elite without planetary landings). Maybe there were only a few systems that were duplicated several times but who cares? You are not going to fly to a system 200 LY away and scream at the Devs because a planet or two looks the same.

How big is Eve? But I bet if you take away the players in the market database and used raw data for a brand new server with nobody playing on it, the data for every system in there probably wouldn't even reach 50gb. Now duplicate that as many times as you need and it would still have far more diversity than anyone could ever see if they played the game for 100 years. Bump maps are simply a small graphic that is repeated several times to cover a given area, that isn't even rendering, all the computer has to do is stitch several graphics together and it's done, it's easier for a modern computer to do than you doing a 5 piece child's jigsaw.

All you are doing is making excuses for them, there are single player games out there that already do far more than what ED does in terms of procedural generation, the only difference is the size of the playing field. But as I said above, if you jumped every 2 minutes for the next 20 years and never slept, you could still only visit 5 million systems so there is no need to store all the data for 400 billion.

 

[igor37]

Actually it involves using the galaxy seed and then running that through all sorts of algorithms that decide what sort of planets will appear at what distances from the sun and apply all other scientific theory modeled in the galaxy simulation.

The texture generation is also not as trivial as you make out. While you can just generate a random texture quite easily random textures are not what is required. The system has to generate a texture with land masses with hills and mountains that make sense to our understanding of the universe. They have to have the right colours based on their generated chemical composition and they have to translate well to bump mapping.

As well as this you don't seem to understand that one of the main reasons for generating the systems is so that they do not have to be stored while inactive so the problem is not hard drive space.

Actually it seems you don't have an idea of how fast today's computers and video cards are. Generating a texture according to an algorithm wasn't a problem 10 years ago, so why should it now?
Ever heard of No Man's Sky? That's a game that can generate up to 18 quintillion planets, filled with procedurally generated animals - and yes, it will feature an offline mode...

EDIT: Also, the game has multiple seconds to generate a single solar system during the hyperspace jump. That's a few textures and coordinates, no problem for any computer that can run this game.

You've had your refund, is your life so lacking you have to hang around like a bad smell.

I don't want a refund because the game is great, for many people it's about an offline mode for when the servers will shut down. I can definitely live without the smell of your redundant comments though.

 

[MetalMicky]

Can I just point out that the biggest difference between OFFLINE and ONLINE is that "Having just spent some hard earned credits, trading and fighting off them pirates. You come back to your Space Station ONLY to be crashed into by a Players ship not bothering to take there turn docking"........ LOL...... the joys of childhood games....

 

[James Son]

Can I just point out that the biggest difference between OFFLINE and ONLINE is that "Having just spent some hard earned credits, trading and fighting off them pirates. You come back to your Space Station ONLY to be crashed into by a Players ship not bothering to take there turn docking"........ LOL...... the joys of childhood games....

Well, from what i've noticed in all stations i've docked so far (and i'm not playing the game for too long), there is at least 1 ship destruction by the station (probably due to violation of some code) every 3-5 minutes. I think that's too much. It's like having a 1/1000 drivers arrested by the police because they cannot park their cars. Perhaps Frontier should work on this too. When a driver is given permission to dock and tries to pass through the entrance of the station in order to enter into it, no other drivers should be permitted to enter or exit. As is today, the risk of crashing into another ship while docking/leaving a station is rather big. There should be a "only 1-ship allowed to pass the gate" rule, which could last for about 30" for each player in order to not wait forever for some newbie. Also, maybe the station rules could be more realistic (i.e. neutralize the ship with some kind of beam and tow it away, not destroy it and just leave all the bits and parts lying around making the life of other pilots harder).

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

Can I just point out that the biggest difference between OFFLINE and ONLINE is that "Having just spent some hard earned credits, trading and fighting off them pirates. You come back to your Space Station ONLY to be crashed into by a Players ship not bothering to take there turn docking"........ LOL...... the joys of childhood games....

solo is also online, therefore your point is not a valid one.

 

[igor37]

solo is also online, therefore your point is not a valid one.

This thread is about offline mode and he referred to it, so it is a valid point. Of course it also applies to solo, but does not exclude a theoretical offline mode.

 

[supamario]

I also want an offline mode and to be able to save my game. I dont have hours and hours to play a game so I just want to be able to play a little, explore in peace and then go to bed.
If taking on a timed mission, I want to be able to save the game and go to bed when required. Not keep going another hour to beat the timer and get to bed at midnight or later. Some of us have to work.
A saved game allows you to re-load in case you come across a game glitch/bug or some silly event that screws up everything you've achieved in the past hour or 2.
I also tire of the .ovx file issue when "upgrading" the game. It has happened to me twice.

I have only since played the game for about an hour in total - having wiped my save game about 5 times due to silly glitches which ruined gameplay. The game clearly isnt ready.
I've uninstalled the game a month ago. I dont wish a refund, I just want to play the game in peace at my own pace. Is that so much to ask?
Saying that people will hack, cheat, expose map, pirate, etc with offline mode is just being paranoid. OK fine, just give us a heavily scaled down galaxy map with NO possibility to interact/join/convert with the Online map.
Thanks

edit: PS. an actual PAUSE mode would be appreciated too. If you have to suddenly leave the computer, hitting Escape in Solo mode doesnt pause the game - you can be flying into a star!

 

[igor37]

I also want an offline mode and to be able to save my game.

Offline mode partially kills the concept of the game and would be a really heavy load for a current PC, although it would be nice in case the server shut down at some point in the future.

If taking on a timed mission, I want to be able to save the game and go to bed when required. Not keep going another hour to beat the timer and get to bed at midnight or later. Some of us have to work.

Then don't accept missions when it's getting late, where's the problem? The game doesn't force you to do anything.

A saved game allows you to re-load in case you come across a game glitch/bug or some silly event that screws up everything you've achieved in the past hour or 2.

If you think that glitches/bugs can't potentially screw up manually saved games you're slightly wrong. And a reload feature would take the "Dangerous" aspect from the game.

An offline mode would be cool in a distant future, but I think Solo mode does the job quite well for now.

 

[supamario]

Offline mode partially kills the concept of the game and would be a really heavy load for a current PC, although it would be nice in case the server shut down at some point in the future.

Then don't accept missions when it's getting late, where's the problem? The game doesn't force you to do anything.
If you think that glitches/bugs can't potentially screw up manually saved games you're slightly wrong. And a reload feature would take the "Dangerous" aspect from the game.
An offline mode would be cool in a distant future, but I think Solo mode does the job quite well for now.

So the game doesnt cater for the casual gamer who may only have an hour to spare and can never take on timed missions?
A saved game means that I can re-try a mission or cargo run should I encounter something unexpected and not fun.
There's "Dangerous" and then there's "tedious and repetitive". I just want a fun experience. I dont need such realism that I can expect to die at any turn and start all over, in the name of "Dangerous".

 

[igor37]

So the game doesnt cater for the casual gamer who may only have an hour to spare and can never take on timed missions?

Yes, and no. It is certainly possible to do various things within one hour, and I have completed many shorter missions within 10 minutes or less. But you have to consider that the game is a space sim, and I have yet to see a (space) simulation that doesn't require much time for all features. In that point the game is different from more casual games.

 

[SeregDuin]

Offline mode was more that just a way to play by yourself or for casual gamers. It was a promise for the remote player. I would never play offline mode if it existed but I would have liked it for one reason: that when my mates who live on outback stations with no internet come into town we can sit around and have a few drinks and talk about elite.
One guy in particular who I was at uni with in 1984 bought the original elite when it came out and we all played it on his computer, now he has no opportunity to play the new game at all.
I think that anything that FD would have to offer would be better than nothing.

 

[Dante80]

I would love to see an single player Elite game based on ED in the future. With constant thruster acceleration, no speed limits, time acceleration, orbital mechanics affecting your trajectory, the option to orbit celestial objects, modding support, a cool OS UI, the journals, etc etc. Many people expected ED to be FE2/FFE on steroids.

Its probably not happening though, at least this decade.