Ok, ok. Just hear me out. Dyson. Spheres.

g0oglyeyes

g0oglyeyes
A species at the technological level of harnessing FTL travel should be able to construct orbital megastructures. Discuss.

To be clear, I'm not saying we should. But we could. But maybe we don't need to? FTL travel is already hypothesized to require exotic matter with negative mass or energy. Was energy - the concept of requiring it - solved in its entirety?
 
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Felix DiCestria

Felix DiCestria
A Dyson sphere might not be a stable construction due to orbital mechanics and require the mass of several star systems to construct.
A Dyson swarm might be possible but again would require mass drawn from multiple systems, constructed over a considerable time span likely requiring an AI to do the construction as several generations of a biological species would pass during construction.
 

g0oglyeyes

g0oglyeyes
Felix DiCestria said:
likely requiring an AI to do the construction as several generations of a biological species would pass during construction.
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It's weird that humans have not managed to construct a sentient AGI in Eliteverse. Perhaps said undertaking would in of itself require the output of a star.
 

Kzak

Kzak
A Dyson Sphere is on a similar level with a Ringworld in terms of construction difficulty. Humanity in the Elite universe have not yet achieved the technology to conduct stellar engineering. Terraforming, yes, but not stellar engineering which is several steps up in complexity from terraforming.
 

aRJay

aRJay
We don’t have the technology level for a sphere or even a ring world probably not even for a swarm.
If we could build them rings such as those in Iain M Banks Culture universe which are much smaller than Larry Nivens and orbit a star rather than built around it would avoid many of the stability issues.

If we could which type of Dyson Sphere should we build, the one where we live on the inside and need gravity generators or the smaller more massive one where actual gravity lets us live on the outside where we could see the stars?

Must add Stapledon’s Starmaker to the reread list.
 

g0oglyeyes

g0oglyeyes
aRJay said:
If we could which type of Dyson Sphere should we build, the one where we live on the inside and need gravity generators or the smaller more massive one where actual gravity lets us live on the outside where we could see the stars?
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Why not both? Otherwise it's unused real estate. The inside could be used for habitation and agricultural purposes while the outside for industry where waste and byproducts can be ejected/vented directly into space.
 

Cosmo

Cosmo
Adding such a detailed star-sized structure costs too much development resources. Maybe we can only see it from afar with an auto-dock option.

Felix DiCestria said:
A Dyson swarm might be possible but again would require mass drawn from multiple systems, constructed over a considerable time span likely requiring an AI to do the construction as several generations of a biological species would pass during construction.
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The construction speed depends on how many labourers and resources are available. If they have plenty then it could be built in a few years. Some hyper advanced species could do it.
 
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DaveB

DaveB
So, let's think about how a Dyson Sphere would grow, and how it would work in-game. Let's begin with a station orbiting a star. Then another one in the same orbit, and another, and another. Eventually, after we have dozens of them, we're looking at connecting them to make the "plates" that form part of a Culture-style orbital. Plate by plate, the ring is completed. It has a gravitational "persona" all its own, impacting the dynamics of the sysatem. There will be stable points relative to its orbit, akin to the lagrange points in regular system mechanics, where additional stations could sit. Once THOSE points are filled, maybe they could become plates too? and so on and so on....

You're actually talking about the work of centuries here, or multiple RL decades of in-game ticks and development.

The only way you're going to get a Dyson Sphere, or swarm, or even a culture-style orbital is if FD decide we need to find an alien one.Which they may have already put in the galaxy and not told anyone because the story isn't ripe yet :)
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
DaveB said:
The only way you're going to get a Dyson Sphere, or swarm, or even a culture-style orbital is if FD decide we need to find an alien one.Which they may have already put in the galaxy and not told anyone because the story isn't ripe yet :)
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I don't think that one would work well. We already know every star in the galaxy in ED. I think we'd notice the gravity disturbance with no/limited light at its center. Just another drawback of the 'style' of 'exploration' we were given.
 

g0oglyeyes

g0oglyeyes
the100thmonkey said:
You need to lay out your argument for why that is true.

You discuss it first.
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A dyson sphere/swarm is possible in theory within a finite amount of time and resources. FTL travel (and communication) is not as it violates the laws of physics. Ergo, if we are already capable of space magic, then the possible should come before the impossible.

We are already discussing it ;)

To be fair, I don't think this is something that FDev can implement. Just observing the incredibly sparse population of most systems, it appears that Eliteverse never saw the need for such structures (and what would it power?). I do think it is a neat concept that fits well in the setting. Perhaps when the game is inevitably expanded to the Large Magellanic Cloud (or Andromeda) we will meet aliens who have constructed these.
 

Montague

Montague
FTL technology obviates the need for such megastructures. If you're stuck in your solar system, sure, build a ringworld or whatever. But our fictitious civilization has the means to colonize endless worlds throughout the galaxy.
 

Space Cadet Jimmy

Space Cadet Jimmy
Tyres O'Flaherty said:
Didn't read the whole thread because, beer.

But, anyways, don't we need to be at least a type 2 civilisation according to Kardashev?

But, well, 3310. Shouldn't we be there by now?
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IRL we're at about 0.74. In 3310 (almost 3311!) we're definitely over a Type 1 (harnessing the power of the entire planet) but I don't think we're particularly close to Type 2 (harnessing the full power of the star).
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
Montague said:
FTL technology obviates the need for such megastructures. If you're stuck in your solar system, sure, build a ringworld or whatever. But our fictitious civilization has the means to colonize endless worlds throughout the galaxy.
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Yep, the idea is a bit self-contradictory. Building a Dyson construct requires the mass of several star systems, which would suggest not only multi-system capability but the ability to transfer whole systems worth of materials. At that point, Shirley it'd be easier just to colonise. You'd have to be a peculiar brand of insular to pursue that path.
 

the100thmonkey

the100thmonkey
g0oglyeyes said:
We are already discussing it
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Not yet - you're waffling and I haven't given my views on the matter yet.
g0oglyeyes said:
To be fair, I don't think this is something that FDev can implement. Just observing the incredibly sparse population of most systems, it appears that Eliteverse never saw the need for such structures (and what would it power?). I do think it is a neat concept that fits well in the setting. Perhaps when the game is inevitably expanded to the Large Magellanic Cloud (or Andromeda) we will meet aliens who have constructed these.
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Why would FD bother expanding the game into other galaxies when we've not even explored 0.1% of this one?
g0oglyeyes said:
A dyson sphere/swarm is possible in theory within a finite amount of time and resources. FTL travel (and communication) is not as it violates the laws of physics. Ergo, if we are already capable of space magic, then the possible should come before the impossible.
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I found a rock. On the other side of the road, there is a tree. Therefore I should be able to fly.

That's the same argument by structure - they're two unrelated ideas simply placed next to each other. You need to explain why such things should be possible in-universe, or even worthwhile. In other words, you need to explain your logic.

Now we're discussing it and I wish we weren't, so I shall recuse myself from the conversation for the time being.
 

g0oglyeyes

g0oglyeyes
the100thmonkey said:
Not yet - you're waffling and I haven't given my views on the matter yet.
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Many posters have been discussing the merits of whether megastructures are possible or desirable within this thread. A discussion can and will occur without you if you do not participate.
the100thmonkey said:
Why would FD bother expanding the game into other galaxies when we've not even explored 0.1% of this one?
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Any number of reasons, really. It could happen for storytelling reasons. We could be involved in another conflict with an alien species, or we could be taking the fight to the Thargoids, whom we don't the origins of. It doesn't necessarily have to happen because we "ran out of room" since scanning stellar objects isn't the only activity that occurs in-game. Note that the Thargoid invasion as of yet doesn't stray too far from the bubble. Given that the LMC is ~100 times smaller than the Milky Way, it could be a nice setup for a specific event. Also, none of us know how long FDev plans to keep supporting the game with fresh content, so an expansion of the game isn't entirely out of the question.
the100thmonkey said:
I found a rock. On the other side of the road, there is a tree. Therefore I should be able to fly.

That's the same argument by structure - they're two unrelated ideas simply placed next to each other. You need to explain why such things should be possible in-universe, or even worthwhile. In other words, you need to explain your logic.
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Technological progress is foundational. To reach higher tiers, you need to conquer the smaller challenges first. Given that FTL travel is flat out impossible by real world standards, it means that we must have a very solid foundation to build upon in the Eliteverse.

And yes, you can fly if someone threw you with enough force.
the100thmonkey said:
Now we're discussing it and I wish we weren't, so I shall recuse myself from the conversation for the time being.
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By all means, don't feel obligated.
 
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