OLED monitors and gradiens Elite Dangerous

[DeadlyMercury]

I recently bought OLED monitor and I think it's the best thing to show the darkness of the space.
But when I tried that - I discovered some nasty gradients that previously were masked with LED backlight. Seems like "sky box" uses low color space like 16bit instead of 24bit / 32bit.
Also in some places there are "highlights" / areoles that has the same issue with gradients.
So general suggestion - can you guys check how the game looks on OLED display and make it look better?
And another suggestion - how about adding HDR support and 10bit monitors support?

 

[rootsrat]

Ah yes, the good old colour banding. In the meantime you can use a 3rd party tool like ReShade with the built-in Deband shader to get rid of this and receive beautiful, smooth gradients. This will wash out some textures in the game and you'll effective lose some details here and there, but stuff like that is always a compromise. For me - it 100% worth it, as it get rids of the terrible banding.

See here for an example profile I created (it has many more shaders active, but you can switch them off if you prefer) https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...s-reshade-preset-elite-roots-enhanced.610807/

 

[DeadlyMercury]

Well, the idea is I think it should be good from the box, without reshade and stuff.
And initially I though that Elite Dangerous would win the most with OLED display since it's a game about space and the space is... black.
Also so far this is the only game that have such issue - and pretty much this issue was successfully masked with LED backlight previously.
These areolas in scanner for example was not noticeable at all on LED display - but it seems they are there to imitate bright picture on black space (which is not black but gray). While with OLED - you simply don't need these and they are looking quite strange.

 

[BatTheBad]

Same with VA monitors

 

[Rebel Yell]

That's why I think the best is playing ED on a 2000s cathode flat 17" monitor.

 

[Imo]

I recently bought OLED monitor and I think it's the best thing to show the darkness of the space.
But when I tried that - I discovered some nasty gradients that previously were masked with LED backlight. Seems like "sky box" uses low color space like 16bit instead of 24bit / 32bit.
Also in some places there are "highlights" / areoles that has the same issue with gradients.
So general suggestion - can you guys check how the game looks on OLED display and make it look better?
And another suggestion - how about adding HDR support and 10bit monitors support?

I play on a new LG OLED C1 48 inch and notived these in some games too. I think these gradient steps are even more noticeable it you switch the OLED to boost mode in its OLED game optimizer menu, the function will reduce the input lag. Beside this try to adjust the gamma value or turn on/off the HDR option in Windows!

 

[DeadlyMercury]

I play on a new LG OLED C1 48 inch and notived these in some games too. I think these gradient steps are even more noticeable it you switch the OLED to boost mode in its OLED game optimizer menu, the function will reduce the input lag. Beside this try to adjust the gamma value or turn on/off the HDR option in Windows!

I'm not looking for "fix" for myself, this is a suggestion to improve the game for everyone.
I don't have that "game optimizer" but seems it simply switch your panel from 10bit to 8bit. Same do overclocking to higher refresh rate etc.

 

[GroG79]

Yes looks like a problem with the monitor.
Do you see the same on screenshots?

 

[DeadlyMercury]

Yes looks like a problem with the monitor.
Do you see the same on screenshots?

(facepalm)
Yes, I can see it on screenshots. Even on screenshots that was taken long time ago.
Yes, it's a problem of monitor: it simply capable to show you black as black and not gray. And capable to show you the difference between 512 shades of gray instead of 128.

Yes, you can adjust gamma. But that will affect every over game (that looks good now especially if it supports hdr) and lower your overall brightness in general. The same way you can simply reduce brightness to minimum.
That's not a "fix" though.

PS disclaimer: photo shows not "game defect" in that case, but simply jpeg defects. And inability to show these defects with IPS panel. And yeah, sRGB gamma with SDR content too.

PPS ok, you can change gamma in the game though not really: the step is too big, it's either clearly visible symbol or no symbol at all. Though even with gamma lower than it should be the problem is still there and probably caused by low color space of "sky box": same black and shades looks much better on nebulas.

 

[varonica]

Yes, I can see it on screenshots. Even on screenshots that was taken long time ago.

Screenshots are taken before the output reaches the monitor, it's captured from the frame buffer of the vid card, if you see it on screenshots then that's what the vid card is outputting and the monitor is just displaying what's sent to it! If you have a faulty monitor, say lines and stuff where some pixels are playing up, and take a screenshot, the screenshot will NOT show the faulty pixels, so a screenshot is not what you see on the screen, it's what is sent to the display, needs more research does this issue, a decent monitor should not be doing that itself and it appears it isn't.

Having a quick look around and searching on google and it appears this isn't an issue on OLED displays for many players, here's a screenshot from the interent of an OLED display with ED running;

 

[DeadlyMercury]

Having a quick look around and searching on google and it appears this isn't an issue on OLED displays for many players, here's a screenshot from the interent of an OLED display with ED running;

Well, on this screenshot you can notice extremely low contrast. Image is "grey" even though it is orange/blue/green...
And still gradient issue is noticeable even here.


And once again - it's not about "how to fix the game for me". This is suggestions and my suggestion is to add HDR / check how the game looks on regular OLED from the box without tweaking contrast / gamma / brightness and make it look better.
I don't quite understand why you still insist "it's just a you-problem"...


Also how would it be even possible for you to spot the issue on "screenshot from OLED" while not using OLED display?..
Yes, I can "fix" it - I just need
1) disable HDR
2) create additional monitor profile with gamma 2.6 instead of 2.2
3) lower brightness to 15 from default 75
4) lower contrast to 50 from default 75

In that case I would see the great dark space. As it should be "from the box".

The only problem here that
a) overall picture is too dark
b) default windows gamma is 2.2, not 2.6
c) I would need to do at least three actions before running ED though I don't need to do such things then running any other game even if that game doesn't support HDR...
d) if I would alt-tab from the game - this kind of settings would also affect desktop. For example, with these settings on screenshot you showed - "can't see captain!"


Also once more time, observation: even with HDR enabled and brightness on 100% and gamma higher than it should be - you can't really see this issue on nebulas:

This probably means nebulas have higher color space than "regular" space. And even without adding HDR if "regular space" would use the same color space size - the issue would be fixed.

 

[varonica]

Well, on this screenshot you can notice extremely low contrast. Image is "grey" even though it is orange/blue/green...
And still gradient issue is noticeable even here.


And once again - it's not about "how to fix the game for me". This is suggestions and my suggestion is to add HDR / check how the game looks on regular OLED from the box without tweaking contrast / gamma / brightness and make it look better.
I don't quite understand why you still insist "it's just a you-problem"...


Also how would it be even possible for you to spot the issue on "screenshot from OLED" while not using OLED display?..
Yes, I can "fix" it - I just need
1) disable HDR
2) create additional monitor profile with gamma 2.6 instead of 2.2
3) lower brightness to 15 from default 75
4) lower contrast to 50 from default 75

In that case I would see the great dark space. As it should be "from the box".

The only problem here that
a) overall picture is too dark
b) default windows gamma is 2.2, not 2.6
c) I would need to do at least three actions before running ED though I don't need to do such things then running any other game even if that game doesn't support HDR...
d) if I would alt-tab from the game - this kind of settings would also affect desktop. For example, with these settings on screenshot you showed - "can't see captain!"


Also once more time, observation: even with HDR enabled and brightness on 100% and gamma higher than it should be - you can't really see this issue on nebulas:

This probably means nebulas have higher color space than "regular" space. And even without adding HDR if "regular space" would use the same color space size - the issue would be fixed.

If you are taking screenshots and it looks the same as on your monitor then the output is what is being sent from your video card to the monitor and the monitor is reproducing exactly what is being sent to it, it's not an artifact of the monitor, it's the actual output of the video card.

d) if I would alt-tab from the game - this kind of settings would also affect desktop. For example, with these settings on screenshot you showed - "can't see captain!"

No that's not correct, the output from the vid card to the monitor when in game is not the same output to the monitor when alt-tabbed out in windows, these are two different graphics streams and the rendering pipelines are entirely different and far less demanding. If you are seeing artifacts on your display in game and see the same artifacts on a screenshot this is what the display card is sending to the monitor and the monitor is reproducing that output correctly.

 

[DrinkyBird]

Seems like a flaw with the display itself, if the slighest bit of grey is jarring against a black background.

 

[varonica]

Seems like a flaw with the display itself, if the slighest bit of grey is jarring against a black background.

If it was a flaw with the display it wouldn't show up in screenshots, that's captured before being sent to the display.

 

[DeadlyMercury]

If you are taking screenshots and it looks the same as on your monitor then the output is what is being sent from your video card to the monitor and the monitor is reproducing exactly what is being sent to it, it's not an artifact of the monitor, it's the actual output of the video card.

Exactly. And that's what I am talking about: the game in normal way display color like 25-25-25 gray immediately next to 0-0-0 black. You can't see that on IPS display because of backlight: contrast in diapason 0-0-0 to 64-64-64 is very low and you literally can't say the difference between 0-0-0 and 32-32-32. Because of that it works with IPS displays - but doesn't with OLED.
And at the same time - nebulas don't have such issue, they don't display 25-0-0 red next to 0-0-0 black, it looks more like 0-0-0 - 5-0-0 - 10-0-0 etc. So the gradient itself is almost not noticeable.

No that's not correct, the output from the vid card to the monitor when in game is not the same output to the monitor when alt-tabbed out in windows, these are two different graphics streams and the rendering pipelines are entirely different and far less demanding. If you are seeing artifacts on your display in game and see the same artifacts on a screenshot this is what the display card is sending to the monitor and the monitor is reproducing that output correctly.

It's cool. I have two different streams, wow. Sad that I display both streams on the same monitor with the same gamma, contrast and brightness level. Since in the game I can only slightly adjust gamma, but not the brightness and contrast.
Also lowering brightness is not a fix, is just a way to make it "bearable". Kinda "if you see the gradients on black to white - you can simply compress that range into 100 nits, cool!".
Yeah, it "works" but not a solution. The solution is to fix gradients in game itself. Because 8bit is more than enough to beat them. But implementation of HDR and 10bit would make it simply magnificent.

Seems like a flaw with the display itself, if the slighest bit of grey is jarring against a black background.

What flaw exactly?
On my display I can see the difference between 14-14-14, 15-15-15, 16-16-16, 17-17-17 etc - and you?
(can't see the difference between 0-0-0 and up to 14-14-14 though, they look the same black and only little hint of light on 14-14-14 appears to me)

 

[DeadlyMercury]

If it was a flaw with the display it wouldn't show up in screenshots, that's captured before being sent to the display.

You don't quite understand. I see it on screenshots if I check the screenshots on the same monitor. Or if I check my old screenshots. Or other people's screenshots.
At the same time I don't see it on the same screenshots if I check it on macbook for example - again simply because it's not capable to display the difference between black and dark grey. While OLED display is capable and it is quite obvious since it's not like difference between 0-0-0 and 16-16-16 - but closer to 0-0-0 and immediately 25-25-25 or even 32-32-32. Without any steps between.

And part of the blame for that is on compression (because most of screenshots are JPEG), things like compression or camera settings (like too high ISO with quite slow shutter) make it more exaggerated than you can see with your own eye.

 

[varonica]

You don't quite understand. I see it on screenshots if I check the screenshots on the same monitor. Or if I check my old screenshots. Or other people's screenshots.
At the same time I don't see it on the same screenshots if I check it on macbook for example - again simply because it's not capable to display the difference between black and dark grey. While OLED display is capable and it is quite obvious since it's not like difference between 0-0-0 and 16-16-16 - but closer to 0-0-0 and immediately 25-25-25 or even 32-32-32. Without any steps between.

And part of the blame for that is on compression (because most of screenshots are JPEG), things like compression or camera settings (like too high ISO with quite slow shutter) make it more exaggerated than you can see with your own eye.

Just a question, what are you using to connect between the OLED display and the PC?

 

[DeadlyMercury]

DisplayPort of course.
... can you please stop trying to find the issue in my setup that doesn't exit? I don't have issue with gradients in both video and images, I also don't have such issue with the games both supporting HDR and not. Including KSP by the way.

 

[DeadlyMercury]

Ok, I'm quite frustrated and tired of this conversation going in circles, let's end it once and for all:

"Perfectly normal screenshot". I doubt you would spot the defects on IPS or especially TN.
The only problem here is that next to the black 8bit 0-0-0 we have gray 8bit 3-3-3, which is 12 shades from black in case of 10bit monitor. And next to it is 8bit 6-6-8.
"2 to 5" - "Where 3 and 4? Where is the rest of them?" (c)Gawr Gura.

And you can use the original screenshot (or your own screen shot) and try to find close shades in dark areas - but I managed to find only 3 and 5. But I haven't find a color like 1-1-1 or 2-2-2 or 4-4-4 etc. Only stuff like 0-0-0, 3-3-3, 5-5-5 etc. And that stuff is pretty obvious on OLED - while not noticeable on IPS thx to backlight.

Another "completely normal screenshot", HUD:

Nothing noticeable on IPS again whatsoever. Round artificial halo on OLED. Again 0-3 - like we use 16 bit color or something.

 

[varonica]

Ok, I'll stop trying to help, good luck with your issue..........I guess my many years in IT were all wasted.