On Waiting: Braben Has Wanted Legs in Elite Since 2001...

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Just some fun quotes :)

In the previous games the technology was not sufficient to give the player total freedom. In Elite, you couldn't fly over planet surfaces, but that was rectified in Frontier. In Frontier you couldn't get out of your ship, but we aim to rectify that in Elite 4. (Andrew Gillet, 2001)
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In Elite, you were a spaceship, to move on to be a person, so many other things have to happen. Apologies for it taking so long, and I really mean that, but it's a game dear to my heart, and I don't want to do it badly. (David Braben, 2006)
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Just to set the record straight, space legs and EVA gameplay, that's way off in the future. That's a goal. I've talked to David and it's always been part of his core vision for what Elite really is, even from way back in the day, it's always been about you're a person in a real futuristic setting, not just a ship. However, I think it's also fair to say Space Legs is effectively dovetailing a whole new game into Elite. We take steps towards it, it's our end vision, but we're not there yet, we're... it's a long way off. (Sandro, 2017)
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EDIT: Bonus 'Elite 4' concept art from the year 2000:

XXeyMNO_d.webp

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Edit 2: Ok, this trading statement suggests his desire pre-dates the year 2000 ;)

Odyssey is an upgrade of exceptional ambition - allowing players to walk on habitable planets, to engage in first person combat and exploration, and to interact with the galaxy at a human scale rather than a space craft scale. Realising that ambition (which I have wanted to do since the 1980s!)
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In light of the fact that the ‘new era’ PDLC seems very likely to involve Legs, it could be that a twenty year wait is almost over :D

(If anyone doesn’t find the above compelling, here’s some complementary info, and an argument that the PDLC is sizeable enough :))

If the DLC is indeed Legs, will they:


Dunno :D

I’m still intrigued to see what they can do with a launch game’s worth of dev though. There should be something intriguing in there at least ;). And probably some stuff that’s thoroughly eccentric...

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Standard caveat: The old roadmap split Legs into two DLCs. Roughly ‘ship interiors + ship boarding’ & ‘station interiors with NPCs, PvE & PvP’. So expecting all of that at once would be unwise ;)
 
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VR Golgot

VR Golgot
SenseiMatty said:
Ok for legs... but I want Atmospheric planets too!!!
Legs were in the previous versions but atmospheric planet did. From this game technology point of view the game has fallen one step back. It has still need to recover its original status.
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The thing on Atmos & tallying with prior Elites, is that the current Plandings provide most of the key functionality that FE2 provided as I understand it (minus stuff like mining placements etc?). And with new stuff on top (SRVs). Just no sky box...

There’s definitely a lot more to be done there to modernise the conceit. But...

The interesting thing about Legs is that there’s an apparent desire there to modernise the concept of Elite more broadly, not just revisit past mechanics.

That’s what I find interesting about Braben’s long-held desire to do it. Not just that he wants to spruce up Elite. But that he seems to want to play with what open worlds can be more generally. (And given Elite kinda gave birth to the open world genre, that feels fitting ;))

Guess we’ll see if they can put anything novel together ;)
 
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Old Duck

Old Duck
If legs come, then I'm glad I stuck with my PS4 controller instead of switching to a HOTAS when I bought my PC. I just hope it works with VR. I'm very comfortable with Skyrim in VR, so if they do something similar, I'll be okay.

ps - I'm looking for legs like we have in Subnautica, not COD or Fortnite in space.
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
Old Duck said:
If legs come, then I'm glad I stuck with my PS4 controller instead of switching to a HOTAS when I bought my PC.
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See, this is something I think a lot of dev's overlook.

The first big online game I played was BF2, which included fast jets, helo's, vehicles and FPS gameplay, and that caused a right faff with controllers.
Basically, you could use KBM and one other input method - joystick or wheel - but it'd be impossible to swap between all three while playing.

I used to use a joystick cos I liked flying the helo's, and then I'd swap to KBM for FPS and driving vehicles.
That was okay but I also used to use a wheel to drive vehicles sometimes (which mean no flying anything) and it was much, much, more fun than using KBM.

That's kind of where we're heading with ED.
We've already got ships and the SRV and we might get an FPS element too.

Wonder if it'd be feasible to control an FPS character using a throttle and rudder pedals and then use the joystick for head-look? :unsure:
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
DrewCarnegie said:
I hope it's spacelegs - then I can simply not buy it. My biggest fear is that it's spacelegs plus some features I actually want - then I'll have to pay for it.
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I hope it is OPTIONAL space legs. As in, don't force me to use legs for what I can currently do without. For example, I would leave an AMFU at home if I could walk around my ship and weld broken equipment to repair it, but I'd rather sit in the cockpit to hand in missions and cargo rather than have to walk 20 miles to do this every single time, Star Citizen style. This is especially true in VR, because I feel obligated to stand whenever I am "walking".

For me, walking around my ship (inside and out) and INRA ruins and perhaps exploring inside Generation Ships is what I'm most excited for. I already have a plethora of first person shooters, so I don't need ED to join this already crowded club.
 

wetwire

wetwire
NMS pulled off First Person VR well,
Ability to aim in any direction while moving is fun, instead of the 2D, turn and shoot we are accustom to.
Clever use of the menu system by looking at your arm was a nice touch.
If ED wants space legs to function in VR, they need to give a serious look into the vr controller support.
Or it will end up feeling unnatural as all your movements are controller input with only head movement freedom.
 

amigacooke

amigacooke
Really, I'm only interested in what Frontier are actually doing, rather than past pronouncements. They're such a poor guide as to what actually happens.
 

[Diplomacy] Carnegie

[Diplomacy] Carnegie
Old Duck said:
I hope it is OPTIONAL space legs. As in, don't force me to use legs for what I can currently do without. For example, I would leave an AMFU at home if I could walk around my ship and weld broken equipment to repair it, but I'd rather sit in the cockpit to hand in missions and cargo rather than have to walk 20 miles to do this every single time, Star Citizen style. This is especially true in VR, because I feel obligated to stand whenever I am "walking".

For me, walking around my ship (inside and out) and INRA ruins and perhaps exploring inside Generation Ships is what I'm most excited for. I already have a plethora of first person shooters, so I don't need ED to join this already crowded club.
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Well as it's a DLC, it's gotta be optional, but I get where you're coming from. Spacelegs needs to introduce some actual gameplay, rather than simply replacing the existing menu system with walking from terminal to terminal. However, I suspect that FDev will simoly rehash the existing timed checkpoint san/shoot loops they've already used for bases and Guardians, but just in a smaller, indoor environment.

Hopefully I'm wrong.
Double-hopefully it's atmo planets.
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Old Duck said:
If legs come, then I'm glad I stuck with my PS4 controller instead of switching to a HOTAS when I bought my PC. I just hope it works with VR. I'm very comfortable with Skyrim in VR, so if they do something similar, I'll be okay.

ps - I'm looking for legs like we have in Subnautica, not COD or Fortnite in space.
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All my virtual fingers are crossed for motion controller support. I could live with a Subnautica-style input scheme via console controller, having got my VR legs, but I’d still find it limiting. Even a baseline port with controller-relative movement + handheld guns + basic point & interact (think Fallout 4 VR) would be so much more. And way more welcoming for both VR & ED noobs.

(My Kinect-tracked toes are crossed for virtual joysticks + panel interfaces, for seamless transitions from cockpit to feet. Like NMS, but way slicker ;). Plus also it would just be badass to have those holo menus as touch panels ;))

It’s all wishful thinking for now though, given how the market slices up. Can only hope the technophilic fancies that led them to support VR in the first place win the argument once more ;)

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PS I really don’t see how ED could ever fall into being CoD or Fortnite. Like ever. I find these comparisons to dedicated PvP arena shooters really odd. (Think of the respawn times alone ;). If you die defending your ship, it’s not like you’re fast-tracked to round two ;))

Sadly a sculpted Subnautica experience also seems unlikely, even if/when Atmos get bestowed. The proc gen at scale just doesn’t play that ball game. But a serious NMS, with its big boy pants pulled right up? Yeah, could happen ;). (But that’s ‘end game’ territory I suspect).

Something that sits between those two examples (bespoke explorer & arena fire-fest) doesn’t sound too bad to me though. Or like something that’s impossible to form in proc gen land. That’s a big ole phase space for FDev to get experimental with, if they’re willing. Vibe for the good times, and guns when things go bad...

(Hell, it’d essentially be a Legs-shaped expression of what we do with ships anyway ;))
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
amigacooke said:
Really, I'm only interested in what Frontier are actually doing, rather than past pronouncements. They're such a poor guide as to what actually happens.
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I do agree in many ways. Plans change when they hit reality.

I still think it’s interesting to note the stuff Braben was into in 2001 (proc gen voices, novel NPC interactions etc). And a certain persistence in some of those strands.

EDIT: As some examples:

Did The Outsider knock the stuffing out of those aspirations to apply novel tech to character gameplay? Are they still an ongoing objective?

Dunno :D

Who knows if mice and men got trounced by tech limits and mighty pen pushers. Or if that's how it will play out all told. I still think it’s interesting stuff to muse on though personally ;)
 
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VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Stealthie said:
See, this is something I think a lot of dev's overlook.

The first big online game I played was BF2, which included fast jets, helo's, vehicles and FPS gameplay, and that caused a right faff with controllers.
Basically, you could use KBM and one other input method - joystick or wheel - but it'd be impossible to swap between all three while playing.

I used to use a joystick cos I liked flying the helo's, and then I'd swap to KBM for FPS and driving vehicles.
That was okay but I also used to use a wheel to drive vehicles sometimes (which mean no flying anything) and it was much, much, more fun than using KBM.

That's kind of where we're heading with ED.
We've already got ships and the SRV and we might get an FPS element too.

Wonder if it'd be feasible to control an FPS character using a throttle and rudder pedals and then use the joystick for head-look? :unsure:
Click to expand...

These are all legit issues. But I also note you had fun ;)

(Similar experiences for me with the BF3 reincarnation. It could be a faff. But felt like a faff that was worth it most of the time ;))
 

Leper Messiah

Leper Messiah
I'll just say I hope FD take inspiration from ...Alien:Isolation....as I normally do. With liberal doses of System Shock, Deus Ex, Subnautica. That's the sort of thng I want, more cerebral first person stuff, rather than what I fear... which is PvP focused nonsense.
 

Ian Doncaster

Ian Doncaster
Stealthie said:
Wonder if it'd be feasible to control an FPS character using a throttle and rudder pedals and then use the joystick for head-look? :unsure:
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Left rudder pedal to step with the left leg, right rudder pedal to step with the right leg, in the style of the 8-bit athletics games?
 

dm0815

dm0815
Of all the possible features I too would like Space Legs the most. Can't see how Atmospheric Landing would bring anything new to the game. Adds some nice scenery to make screenshots for sure, but that wouldn't be worth an AAA price tag for me.

JohnRoberts said:
I'm sure we'll all be very pleasantly surprised. It's FDev, guys, what could possibly go wrong?
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Space Legs and Atmospheric Landings got canned. Enjoy our new super power pledge system (which is totally not Powerplay) and win the favour of your liege by doing stuff. But make sure that you do so frequently or you won't be loved anymore! Love meter also decays weekly for some reason ...

That's all made up, but I can't rule out the possibility of it actually happen and that scares me.
 
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