One by one trade is broken / OP, and needs to be fixed

If you sell high-value trade commodities one unit at a time, you get more merits than selling them all at once. This is well known — so much so that there is a ticket for it. After reading this, I want you to confirm and upvote this ticket because it's destroying fair play in PowerPlay.

Issue Tracker

Here's my reasoning: One by one sales encourages players to find a cheap load of high-value goods and sit there, sometimes for hours, selling one by one. Eventually, some Cmdrs will turn to the dark side and realize that they are still being beaten, and the obvious conclusion is selling macro scripts one by one.

Games should prioritize PLAYING the game, not cheesing a bad by design game mechanic. If you have an hour to spare, and you can do four loads of high value goods, great. You should get 4 loads worth of merits whether you sell them 1 x 1 or all at once. If you run a system out of a high value good, you need to play the game to find more. That's great. That's how the game should be played. The 1 x 1 seller doesn't have to do that. That's not fair to the Cmdr who is playing the game right. The 1 x 1 seller will get at least 10 times the amount of merits as the Cmdr who plays the game the way it should be played. That's not fair.

I don't want high-value trade to be nerfed; I want it to be fair and eliminate any potential advantage someone can get by using a macro sell bot. FDev, please give us the same number of merits per unit as selling one at a time. This will push people to haul more, force them to find more stations with the stuff they need, and actually play more. And it hurts cheaters. Win-Win-Win.

This used to affect BGS as well. FDev almost certainly got sick of all the trade botters, so they fixed trade and botting mostly went away as a BGS problem. They also fixed it for mining merits. You get the same number of merits selling 1 x 1 as selling all at once. The exception is high value trade, and it needs to stop.

The excuse for 1 x 1 sales I often heard back in the bad old days was that it allowed an early hours Cmdr in a Cobra Mk 3 to have the same sort of impact as an experienced Cmdr in a Cutter or Type 9. That was almost a reasonable excuse because it took months to earn the credits required to buy a Type 9. These days, credits are easy to come by. It's a matter of a few hours if someone tells you how to do laser platinum mining. Earning credits and buying a Type 9 or Cutter is a non-problem now. But 1 x 1 sales create a real problem in that a single Cutter load of cheap silver or gold might earn 40000 CP or more in an hour or so by NOT PLAYING the game but sitting at a station and doing the same action 794 times. Probably with a macro script. Let's get rid of the problem.

Reproduction steps. In galmap on Friday or Saturday, find a power, any power, but you probably will think of your opponents first. Click on the Power Play Activity filter. Choose Reinforcement. Choose Minimum Activity Level, and start with High, but Low also works. Look at the systems that have ridiculous amounts of reinforcement already. Now, think how many Cmdrs it would take to do that at 10 kCP/hr, and compare that number to the Inara data on total number of pledges for that power. It doesn't add up. Change to the trade view, so you can see the trade lines between systems. If there are trade lines, then trade is being done. Go to the system, look at the ships in the system in station news. It's probably high. Go to Inara, and find a good trade loop with more than 40% profit margin. It's likely to be one of the systems in the gal map that you already spotted. This is a system where 1 x 1 selling is taking place. It needs to stop.

NB: This is not an official Pranav Antal position, but I believe it is in the interest of a free and fair contest that encourages game play, and eliminates the use of macro scripts to get an unfair advantage. I do not claim ANY player or group is cheating. I have specific systems that FDev might be interested in, and I'm sure you can find others in your own backyard, so I'm not going to share these systems because that will only identify a group or set of players, and that's not my point. Only FDev can look into it, and only they can fix it. I don't want anyone punished, I want the issue fixed, and it's an easy fix. Just give us the same merits per unit regardless of the number of units sold. Same as in BGS, same as in mining merits.
 
I don't think this is the big unbalancing issue you are making it out to be. I'm with Mahon, in order to use trade I had to manipulate the target system to a boom so that goods sold in one of our nearby fortified or stronghold systems could be sold at a 40% profit. Sadly, the system went contested with Archer which is a combat focused power. All of the sudden power conflict zones spawn and instead of having to hunt for targets their pilots now have target spoon fed to them. Am I right in the assumption that an Archer aligned pilot would get far more merits and control points per combat zone completion versus me with Mahon? Because I can tell you when those combat zones appeared the control point out hourly for Archer rocketed and single unit sales would haven't done a thing to help me close the gap. The only other possibility, is that 20 Archer pilots decided to focus on the system, which is possible.
 
My opinion is that, yes, trading 1 unit at a time shouldn’t give more merits than bulk sales. But if a player wants to spend his time in ED grinding it, go for it, but he shouldn’t complain about it not being fun. As for impact in PP control points, there are better methods that are much less grindy that yield more control points per hour. And if the goal is just gaining merits, again there are less grindy methods to make higher merits per hour.
 
But 1 x 1 sales create a real problem in that a single Cutter load of cheap silver or gold might earn 40000 CP or more in an hour or so by NOT PLAYING the game but sitting at a station and doing the same action 794 times. Probably with a macro script. Let's get rid of the problem.
Yes.
This is one of the more crazy broken things about ED. I'd love to see the source code - was it a deliberate decision or a really odd bug? Hard to know, but omfg it's nasty.
And if the goal is just gaining merits, again there are less grindy methods to make higher merits per hour.
Are there? What would you suggest?

And moreover, are there any other methods which are so broken that they can literally be achieved AFK by the use of a macro? (This in itself raises the nastiness of people doing it with multiple alts in parallel...) [edit: I should have quoted the bit about control points here rather than merits :)]
 
Are there? What would you suggest?
I would suggest enjoying the game and not focusing on merits. Rank 100 will be achieved soon enough with regular PP activities, and the current care package retrieval system is broken anyway. There is little to be gained by ranking >100. I won’t contribute to grinding suggestions; I have seen many players get fed up with it and quit playing over the years. If you really want to grind, the information is out there.
 
The only question is does it give an unfair advantage? The fact that there is a difference and a big one in selling cargo one at a time rather than bulk is stupid. But does that mean that the payout achieved by 1t selling is too high or is the merit payout selling in bulk too low? I'd like to see what the leader boards for each power look like. If the top five on the Mahon leader board are all in the one million range while Archer and Antal have top five earners in the 1-5 hundred thousand range?
 
I would suggest enjoying the game and not focusing on merits. Rank 100 will be achieved soon enough with regular PP activities, and the current care package retrieval system is broken anyway. There is little to be gained by ranking >100. I won’t contribute to grinding suggestions; I have seen many players get fed up with it and quit playing over the years. If you really want to grind, the information is out there.
I don't think anyone in this thread is concerned with merit gain for rank. The issue is control score and being able to move the needle in one direction or the other.
 
I would suggest enjoying the game and not focusing on merits.
You may have missed the "edit" in my post. I was trying to respond to your comment about control points:
As for impact in PP control points, there are better methods that are much less grindy that yield more control points per hour.
Personally, having done a few minutes worth of the 1t-at-a-time nonsense just to check the merits-per-hour figure (45k/hr), I will never do it again, because obviously it's not even close to fun.
 
Well, if it isn't causing trading factions to gain an advantage I don't see the issue. 1t is tedious and soul destroying which are important pillars of Frontier game design philosophy.
 
It's hard for me to grasp how 1t trading can be an advantage for merits. It would waste a lot of time that could be spent getting more commodities and returning to sell in bulk. That, and it would be mind numbing.
 
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With laser mining in a metallic ring at a Platinum hotspot, in my Cutter I could get ca 450 tons of Platinum in 1h 40mins, which would get me circa 9 merit ranks if I remembered to check that the prices were decently high before starting mining. That was for selling the whole cargo in one go, then heading out for more.
 
I would go further and mention that this is not just about fair play, but also about healthy play. The manual repetition of 1 ton trades is a hand-wrecking repetitive effort that if left this way will very likely cause health issues.

It boggles my mind it has not been addressed (even with a single word) in so many months alongside further balancing (mining in optimal systems is crazy merits, to the point people grind maxed out strongholds instead of moving to other systems) and fixing the disabled actions (rare trades and escape pods). My only assumption is that Frontier has been reduced to so few active devs in Elite, that they could not dedicate resources to PP2 right now - they are all working on Colonisation.

I'd love to be wrong and see that the Trailblazers patch addresses at least a single PP2 issue. But other than that, my feeling of the feature being abandoned is almost the same as back in PP1 - just wishing to see a single patch line dedicated to it.
 
it won't make the game fair, because of the concept of PP2.0. And it won't save your Antal from the invasion of pirate locusts, with their concept. Simply because... the number of people in the faction, and who has more of them, this is... who wins.
some kind of cutoffs are needed that will be able to contain the onslaught
 
I would go further and mention that this is not just about fair play, but also about healthy play. The manual repetition of 1 ton trades is a hand-wrecking repetitive effort that if left this way will very likely cause health issues.

No one in their right mind is going to sit there and 1T trade manually, we've had the tools to automate this for decades. And on that note Fdev doesn't care that you sit in your T10 Defender AFK farming pirates, do you think they care that you macro sell 1T trades? The answer to that is a resounding no.

PP2 isn't even remotely close to having any semblance of balance, like Ughkoff points out above, it's a numbers game. The factions are wildly imbalanced, both in effects and player count, if Fdev cared about a balanced environment, there would have been population caps for the factions, as well as changing/effectual bonuses for lesser factions.
 
if Fdev cared about a balanced environment, there would have been population caps for the factions, as well as changing/effectual bonuses for lesser factions.
But nevertheless, there is a balance of a sort:
- all Powers are much weaker at Undermining than Reinforcement and Acquisition
- so all Powers are growing, because they're not really practical to undermine. Everyone, even the weakest and most surrounded Powers, is up on systems since the start.
- some Powers are growing faster than others, of course, but this isn't a balance problem because you don't get any rewards for being large in either an absolute or relative sense, and everyone's already more than large enough to provide plenty of opportunity for their power bonuses to apply
- Colonisation is about to start expanding the bubble itself faster than the combined Power expansion rate, so it's not even as if a faster-expanding Power can use up all your possibilities.

Everyone gets to win.
 
No one in their right mind is going to sit there and 1T trade manually, we've had the tools to automate this for decades. And on that note Fdev doesn't care that you sit in your T10 Defender AFK farming pirates, do you think they care that you macro sell 1T trades? The answer to that is a resounding no.
A small quibble here: I agree that FD don't seem bothered about AFK farming, but that - AFAIK - is not against the EULA.
Automation software on the other hand is explicitly forbidden by the EULA.
The thing that annoys me and others about this stupid bug/feature is that it hugely incentivises people to do what is by any metric the wrong thing.
 
This used to affect BGS as well. FDev almost certainly got sick of all the trade botters, so they fixed trade and botting mostly went away as a BGS problem. They also fixed it for mining merits. You get the same number of merits selling 1 x 1 as selling all at once. The exception is high value trade, and it needs to stop.

The excuse for 1 x 1 sales I often heard back in the bad old days was that it allowed an early hours Cmdr in a Cobra Mk 3 to have the same sort of impact as an experienced Cmdr in a Cutter or Type 9. That was almost a reasonable excuse because it took months to earn the credits required to buy a Type 9.
Something to note on this from the BGS perspective is that it made a lot more sense in the original BGS design.

The BGS was not originally intended as a strategic wargame (and Frontier seem to be trying to get away from supporting it as one, more recently). So in terms of "keeping things moving dynamically" it absolutely wants players in cheap ships to have a detectable effect. On that basis, counting transactions rather than volume made perfect sense - it doesn't matter if someone is trading in a T9 or a Sidewinder, the point is that "trades are happening" and therefore the system should move towards "more trade outcomes" in the background.

Lots of things (almost the entire negative action set, for example) had to be removed from the BGS when Frontier attempted to support the "wargame" use players had invented for it because they were great and added background variety really well so long as someone didn't sit there spamming them all day. Abandoning missions "should" harm factions, because that adds an extra source of input to keep things moving, and it "should" be a fairly high-power effect because most missions get completed rather than abandoned so when it does happen it needs to do something more noticeable. Right up until the point people start doing it deliberately, and then it's obvious that it can't be compatible with the "wargame" use.

So now we have a BGS which is balanced around people moving it deliberately, very regularised, very rarely does anything particularly interesting and tends to a boring equilibrium in the absence of deliberate efforts. But the people playing it as a wargame can. Getting away from that again so that people doing small but unusual actions can break those equilibriums, and not caring too much if that makes 150-system factions more vulnerable to both random noise and grindy attack would probably be positive overall, especially with Colonisation potentially spreading out the player base much thinner.

Powerplay, on the other hand, is supposed to be the strategic wargame, so needs to be balanced on the assumption that a lot of people will be grinding the effective things no matter how unfun it is in the moment, and not making things be both unfun and effective.
 
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