What is with the limitation of only two alligators in a habitat? What the heck are you guys thinking? Its like you've done no research at all. Alligators pile on top of one another in the wild. The iconic "gator-filled bog" with a dozen alligators or more are found everywhere in Florida. This picture is from one zoo here in Florida. The alligators are happy and healthy. What's up with this?
Only two alligators? Are you kidding?
- Thread starter ChefJackButler
- Start date
It’s already been updated so that more can be held.
I haven't seen that yet. Though now all it means is I repeat my first post with "What is with the limitation of only six alligators in a habitat?"
Well first and foremost, those are not adult alligators, but young/juveniles.
Next to that, alligators are a bit of a difficult thing to do. Large groups of alligators do exist for sure, but only smaller ones of the same size. Larger, especially male, alligators are territorial and do not mix well with others. Group size based on animal sizes doesn't exist in the game, and it's a mechanic that's so specific that it's just not really worth implementing in the grand scheme of things ( as always, games need to comprise because of production resources (dev time) and client resources (less powerful pcs));
And sure, there are small to midsize zoos that have these large groups of alligators in sometimes rather small enclosures, which are at an arguable position because a huge amount of gators piled up in a small exhibit is maybe not the best for welfare. Bigger zoos usually keep them in smaller groups in bigger enclosures.
Overall, groups of 6 seems to be a reasonable compromise to me. If you want to build these big alligator farms that are maybe not as keen on animal welfare, you can always play sandbox and turn off welfare.
You've never actually seen alligators at a zoo in real life yourself, have you?
I ask this because while everything you just said sounds reasonable, it demonstrates pretty clearly a complete and total lack of knowledge regarding alligator behavior in real-world zoos or in the real world itself, for that matter.. Zoos that, despite what you claim, are "keen" on animal welfare, but perhaps know just a bit more about alligator behavior than a bunch of people who've never actually dealt with them. And its clear that the developers never have. I don't know from where they are getting the information on the animal and its behavior in captivity, but the truth is, a well-fed, well-cared for alligator in captivity is one of the most docile, easily managed animals you can think of.
And by the way, I resent the implication you are making here. The zoo from which the picture in my OP was taken relocates the larger bull alligators that you describe -- but such bulls are as a rule twenty- to thirty-years old. The zoos in question have enough experience with the animals to know when that needs to happen. And despite your description as an "alligator farm," its an actual zoo. Not some half- roadside attraction looking to exploit the animals at any cost and not giving a about their health and welfare.
I don’t claim to know much 1st hand about gators but from what I know about other crocodilians, Iben is probably right about this - breeding adults at those densities, if they are of different sizes, will very likely experience a fair bit of aggression between them. maybe tell us what the name of the zoo is do they we can look it up ourselves?
As has been said before, the limit of 6 animals relates to adults. Juveniles don't factor into the limit; please correct me if I'm wrong.
With 6 adults: 5 females and a male, plus a maturation time of 11 years, gestation period of 3 months, interbreeding time span of 2 years and an average clutch size of 2.5 juveniles, you should be able to have, on average, 19 juveniles at any given point in time.
This would still make for a total of 25 individuals per habitat. On average! as clutch size can go up to... 5, I think it was? The final number could be significantly larger with the low maturation rate of this species in the game.
With 6 adults: 5 females and a male, plus a maturation time of 11 years, gestation period of 3 months, interbreeding time span of 2 years and an average clutch size of 2.5 juveniles, you should be able to have, on average, 19 juveniles at any given point in time.
This would still make for a total of 25 individuals per habitat. On average! as clutch size can go up to... 5, I think it was? The final number could be significantly larger with the low maturation rate of this species in the game.
That's still not enough. The average clutch in the wild is 14, not 5, and that's out of 70 to 90 eggs laid. The losses are due to predation from racoons, snakes, larger lizards birds, and so on. In a zoo setting, you can expect many, many more eggs to hatch, so the clutch could be as many as 40 to 50 individual hatchlings.
The developers of the game have misjudged the American alligator when it comes to its breeding and its life habits in a zoo setting.
The developers of the game have misjudged the American alligator when it comes to its breeding and its life habits in a zoo setting.
as with other crocodilians and many other animals they reduced the number of offspring intentionally for gameplay purposes. They didn’t make a mistake, they made a decision.
Many of the reptiles and arthropods in the game have the number of their offspring reduced. But also consider that all offspring in the game are pretty much guaranteed to survive. With 40 to 50 individuals per clutch the game would become rather unmanagible for many players as you would constantly be busy releasing/selling/transferring alligators.
People have already been complaining about the reproduction rate of the beetles and frogs and do not ever place them in their zoo, because they become too much to manage. I believe that the devs simply made a cut here for the sake of manageability.
People have already been complaining about the reproduction rate of the beetles and frogs and do not ever place them in their zoo, because they become too much to manage. I believe that the devs simply made a cut here for the sake of manageability.
You're probably right. its just that this is such a notable characteristic of the alligator -- its how the species could bounce back from Critically Endangered directly to Least Concern in less than 15 years, after all -- that anyone who was really familiar with alligators would, as I am, be shocked and disappointed.
I think clutch sizes have been adjusted downwards for many of the reptiles to balance playability with realism. We tend to get baby nile monitors, gharials, and salt crocs coming out of our ears anyway in the game (and they take a long time to mature too), and it would be nuts if they had completely realistic clutch sizes. Same for the exhibit animals, which seem to be having smaller clutch sizes than they did before the last update.
As for the social dynamics, this wouldn't be the first animal they got wrong or maybe just re-purposed a related-but distinct-species' social programming. The zoopedia even says chimps can live in mixed groups of 15 individuals with up to 10 of either sex. Chimps live in multi male/multi female sex groups in the wild too (there is a dominant male that does more of the mating due to females preferring them, but related male chimps form complex social support networks within a troop. Having a dominant male and/or female in a mixed social group does not mean there is constant fighting or challenging of status in all hierarchical species; in fact the hierarchy can reduce conflict). But in the actual game, if you have more than one adult male chimp in a troop, they always engage in dangerous fighting no matter how much space you give them. I think they just used the gorilla/mandril programming as the default for primates with a so-called alpha male.
It can be frustrating, but I guess that's a reminder that it's a game.
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it's not two
ChefJackButler,
Iben is most likely right about it being a matter of customer resources; I would guess it is that more than anything else, even dev time. I watch a lot of PZ builders on YouTube that do a lot of intricate construction, and they've said that when the piece count for builds gets too high, the game starts lagging, glitching, and/or crashing. Especially if the zoo also has a lot of animals and/or guests inside. I think I was watching a PaulsLey video once where he was like, "I can't actually open the zoo and let guests in, or the game will crash." I don't know the technical terms for it, but basically the user's computer, the software, or both can't keep track of all of the different variables at once. And given the number of PZ YouTubers who clearly have quality gaming setups, I think that says something about how resource intensive PZ can get. I imagine this is the real reason why--outside of sandbox mode--the habitat population limits are what they are, not just for the American Alligator, but also for the American Bison (which can and do live in much larger groups in the wild than they do in PZ) as well as others.
Frontier is actually really good at researching the animals they put into their games, and anywhere you see population downgrades like this (including brood/clutch/litter/etc sizes for offspring), it's often proportional to the real-life statistics; I highly doubt that this population cap has anything to do with their development team knowing nothing about gators (or the other animals whose populations have been limited in this way).
Iben is most likely right about it being a matter of customer resources; I would guess it is that more than anything else, even dev time. I watch a lot of PZ builders on YouTube that do a lot of intricate construction, and they've said that when the piece count for builds gets too high, the game starts lagging, glitching, and/or crashing. Especially if the zoo also has a lot of animals and/or guests inside. I think I was watching a PaulsLey video once where he was like, "I can't actually open the zoo and let guests in, or the game will crash." I don't know the technical terms for it, but basically the user's computer, the software, or both can't keep track of all of the different variables at once. And given the number of PZ YouTubers who clearly have quality gaming setups, I think that says something about how resource intensive PZ can get. I imagine this is the real reason why--outside of sandbox mode--the habitat population limits are what they are, not just for the American Alligator, but also for the American Bison (which can and do live in much larger groups in the wild than they do in PZ) as well as others.
Frontier is actually really good at researching the animals they put into their games, and anywhere you see population downgrades like this (including brood/clutch/litter/etc sizes for offspring), it's often proportional to the real-life statistics; I highly doubt that this population cap has anything to do with their development team knowing nothing about gators (or the other animals whose populations have been limited in this way).