Open PvP needs work, but please don't get carried away!

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
As this is about PVP, that has to include non-consensual PVP ( I HATE THAT TERM ) as well. Whether others like it, its part of the game.

.... if those others choose it to be part of *their* game, of course. Players who do not wish to engage in non-consensual PvP can choose one of the two other game modes to play in.
 
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The issue with that and I am not going to open this can of worms again, so will try to keep it short.

Anything that can be done in Open can be done safer in Solo or Private.

As this is about PVP, that has to include non-consensual PVP ( I HATE THAT TERM ) as well. Whether others like it, its part of the game.

So motivation will always be beaten by lower risk for the same reward, unless there is something to balance that enhanced risk.

I am not going to get into a discussion on this again, its been done to death.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

FD cursed their own game by the design decision to make people swap between these modes.

best solution would be, Solo mode = 10x as much money 100x as much impact on PP and minor factions but therefore being a true local game as a single player mode with all it's progression saved on the local machine.

Then a group mode with lower multipliers but then only affecting a universe within this group.

then Open, as a real MMO mode.

but those weird semi MMO implementation is just causing more issues than needed.



.... if those others choose it to be part of *their* game, of course. Players who do not wish to engage in non-consensual PvP can choose one of the two other game modes to play in.

but no matter what playmode you choose you always kinda play with and vs others because there is just one big universe that changes by being influenced form all 3 modes.

If you make solo mode count less people who play solo get robbed of features. While most of these people probably would prefer a true singlepalyer game mode.
if everyone can make unlimited commanders for group and solo modes and them beign seperated form a single open mode commander slot stuff would imporve a lot and these problems would stop to exist.
 
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Majinvash

Banned
.... if those others choose it to be part of *their* game, of course. Players who do not wish to engage in non-consensual PvP can choose one of the two other game modes to play in.

AAAANNNDDD there he is.... Do you have some sort of alert setup?

Thanks Robert for stating the Obvious.

I was pretty sure non-consensual covered it

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
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Majinvash

Banned
Me too :mad:

Is sensual PvP a thing? If not, it should be - it sounds fun :D

"Majinvashs rail gun, thrusts forcefully towards Marra's thrusters"

"Marra is excited and becomes hot with excited, her internal systems start to fail"

"As the two tangle in a beautiful space dance, Majinvash finally releases his heat sink"

"Marra collapses exhausted to the Rebuy screen, gently pressing her Rebuy button. Ready for another embrace"

Majinvash
Sexy Voice of Open

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Nope....



My pleasure.



Interesting question. There are those who contend that anyone logging in to the game in Open play has given consent to anything that happens there - does that mean that there is no non-consensual PvP in E: D?

No Non would imply double negative, meaning everything is consensual by the act of logging into Open. So... sure why not.

Its like complaining about being shot in Battlefield because you just want to drive a jeep around or look at the scenery.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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There are those who contend that anyone logging in to the game in Open play has given consent to anything that happens there - does that mean that there is no non-consensual PvP in E: D?

In my opinion, there isn't.
By being in Open, a player can encounter both friendly and hostile players.
I think that something to clarify that should be stated in the main menu, so that everyone fairly knows what they're getting in to.
 
One of the general problems with PvP is that there's always someone that will knowingly abuse it.

The Open mode Elite has itself is great in itself, if people would just show people a bit of respect and actually go for real PvP and not "I'm a PvP'er looking for a challenge by attacking those that can't defend themselves and have no chance!"
Am I saying piracy shouldn't exist? nope, but I am saying that pirates in a big ship should go after bigger targets, there is really no excuse for going after an easy target.
That they can run is something they should be able to do, its the pirates job to be quicker and more convincing so even bigger targets do not run, pirating is not meant to be easy.

And then there's the "interdict and blow up" group, that just does it 'because' basically griefers that hurt the game, simply because they want that specific one type of fun and can't find fun in anything else, of which there are many options.

This is what I think is the primary reason behind why PvP is so hard to get right when you want to include it into an Open environment where everything is possible, because someone will always misuse it, not because there are those that want to avoid risk at all cost, they do exist sure, but more because those few that misuse PvP, can affect a lot of people and the game in general.

Who's going to be affected by a combat logger? well sure the pirate and the combat logger, but that's really it, they shouldn't be doing it, but the impact is minimal, and they can cause themselves to get punished. But the pirate has other possible targets.

Who gets affected by a griefer though? every single person the griefer decides to pick out as target, which can be a lot.

As you point out, there needs to be consequences, and I hope the new system coming with 2.1 will fix these issues that we have, even if 2.1 is quite a ways off and I can understand people being impatient.
 
"Majinvashs rail gun, thrusts forcefully towards Marra's thrusters"

"Marra is excited and becomes hot with excited, her internal systems start to fail"

"As the two tangle in a beautiful space dance, Majinvash finally releases his heat sink"

"Marra collapses exhausted to the Rebuy screen, gently pressing her Rebuy button. Ready for another embrace"

Majinvash
Sexy Voice of Open

:eek:[wacky]:D

See, sensual PvP is fun!
Now let's see you mix it up with the fellas ;)
 
"Majinvashs rail gun, thrusts forcefully towards Marra's thrusters"

"Marra is excited and becomes hot with excited, her internal systems start to fail"

"As the two tangle in a beautiful space dance, Majinvash finally releases his heat sink"

"Marra collapses exhausted to the Rebuy screen, gently pressing her Rebuy button. Ready for another embrace"

Still a better love story than Twilight... :p
 
Nope....



My pleasure.



Interesting question. There are those who contend that anyone logging in to the game in Open play has given consent to anything that happens there - does that mean that there is no non-consensual PvP in E: D?

diving into stars is rather much non consensual, but most other common actions are. Even further if you consider that open is instanced even in open people can engage in non-consensiual PvP. Which kinda makes even open a flawed system, yet probably the only feasable solution when you want one server for the entire world and not have them all warp and lag together.
 
If people whom I shoot dropped epix loot (based on their competence), then I might be inclined to bother pvp - but until then I don't bother, unless in a foul mood. As it is right now, there's about as much incentive to go head-to-head with someone as there's incentive to watch grass grow.
 
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You couldn't call it Elite Dangerous, if it wasn't "dangerous".

Actually, it's called "Elite: Dangerous" because...

  1. The rank "Dangerous" was as far as most players got in 1984 before their parents banned them from the computer.
  2. When David Braben was working on "Frontier: Elite 2", he was listening to Michael Jackson's album Dangerous.
  3. Dangerous Dave of the Space Patrol wanted a game named after him, and it would have been silly to call the game "Elite: Dave".
 
If people whom I shoot dropped epix loot (based on their competence), then I might be inclined to bother pvp - but until then I don't bother, unless in a foul mood. As it is right now, there's about as much incentive to go head-to-head with someone as there's incentive to watch grass grow.

To me, the incentive is "fun." After all, that's the only reason I play Elite--for fun. And PvP is fun. Who cares about spacebux--they don't do me any good outside of the game.
 
One of the general problems with PvP is that there's always someone that will knowingly abuse it.

And sadly every time there's a fix certain regular individuals try to find a way around it to spread as much grief as possible once more (ie George Lucas rammers)

Am I saying piracy shouldn't exist? nope, but I am saying that pirates in a big ship should go after bigger targets, there is really no excuse for going after an easy target.
That they can run is something they should be able to do, its the pirates job to be quicker and more convincing so even bigger targets do not run, pirating is not meant to be easy.

Problems with that - there's no reason a pirate can't pick on weak prey. It actually seems like a very piratey thing to do. What criminal looks for a fair fight? ;) BUT, the incentive needs to be to also let that weak prey survive if they comply, and as things stand it's not working out that way - at least based on voiced complaints.

Part of the problem is the interdict and blow up crowd you mentioned later. People like them make it so anyone getting interdicted is going to assume it's a psycho killer first and flee first thing. Pirate, not wanting to lose cargo, has to open fire, hoping to spook them into dropping all cargo. Trader, being fired upon, feels justified in thinking the pirate is a psycho killer... viscous cycle. Things happen in seconds, and it's not enough time to take in information and adjust under a standard interdiction without some kind of help (text macros help).


Who's going to be affected by a combat logger? well sure the pirate and the combat logger, but that's really it, they shouldn't be doing it, but the impact is minimal, and they can cause themselves to get punished. But the pirate has other possible targets.

You're understating the impact there. Traders complain about piracy because of the lost time it results in for them during their trade runs - why can't pirates have the same complaint? All that work to interdict and suddenly "poof!" the target's gone? Have to wait 40 seconds for the FDS to spool and then start hunting again? Who knows how long till the next CMDR shows up in my instance... I'm no pirate, but that would tick me off for sure! The devs themselves talked about PvP being "rare and meaningful" but meaningful works both ways.

And of course logging also results in some pirates opening fire if they don't get a response right away. Silence is assumed to be preparing to log. Suspecting that, what frustrated pirate wouldn't want to try and take them out first? Again, viscous cycle.



One idea I posted elsewhere was that combat logging should result in automatic cargo drop. Sure it would look gamey to have a ship disappear and canisters appear, BUT it would mean that a combat logger doesn't get away with their action scott free. Maybe wreckage could be added in so you could assume in-game roleplay wise that the ship simply suffered some kind of catastrophic malfunction and imploded ;)

This would encourage pirates not to immediately open fire, because they know that even if a silent player CLs there will be booty to be had. It's worth their time to take the chance. And said silent player now has more time to respond (maybe they are slow at typing and have no macros set up). It's worth their time not to panic.

I think it would help.

Downsides: what if it's an accidental internet drop? Well, for most the money lost isn't going to be insurmountable, probably far less than your ship's rebuy. So I don't see it being a problem most of the time. But of course there will be exceptions. If it was a legit drop and you were put in a painful economic bind because of it, you could contact FD the same way you would for a bug that resulted in a gamebreaking loss (heck, they've even replaced SRVs for explorers because it would take too dang long for them to travel back and buy a new one).

Also, the cargo drop would only happen in combat situations (ie any situation where you have the 15 second wait if you're trying to exit). So it's not like it would happen every time.

Someone mentioned that if this was implemented hackers would find a way to block your IP address, making you CL and take your loot. I don't know if that's actually possible (I heard elsewhere that kind of blocking is not possible), but even if it is, it's no different than any other kind of cheating. In fact, if they're already cheating they don't need to block you to steal your loot anyway. I see it as a non-issue. There are plenty of pirates here people are POed about because of how they take advantage of mechanics, but none of them would resort to cheating.

Another measure could be to limit how much cargo is lost in a CL drop. Up to a max of, say, 100 tons (which I think is the max allowed in deep space?). That way an Anaconda with a ship full of gold doesn't lose everything, but the pirates easily get more than enough to make them happy.
 
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1. A wing of 2 enemies attack me in my capital.
2. I take out 1 and focus on the other.
3. The one that I killed jumps in after couple of minutes with brand new ship.
4. Wait What? My faction just gave a ship to our hostile enemy.
5. High wake out. Repair. Quit.
6. No more power play until it is fixed.
 
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