Ships Opinions on Clipper Loadout

[mossfoot]

I'm looking to tweak my Clipper into an excellent multi-role model, and I think I got the right balance and compromise. What do you think?

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...2.Iw18aQ==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot's Clipper

The idea here is the Prismatic Shield Generator frees up a Utility slot, providing more protection, without sacrificing versitility (the two non booster slots can be swapped out for other things as needed)

Due to the high power useage, I went with a C3 Beam (fixed) and C3 Pulse (gimbled). In this case, however, the Pulse will bind with both the beam for the Trigger 1 setting, and with the 2 multi cannons in the Trigger 2 setting - That way it can worth with both dedicated shield pounding (fixed C3 is great for that), and help wear down the hull without expending much more energy (I hope)

I've tried loadouts using cannons in the past, but am just not convinced of their effectiveness in wearing down hulls, and all the other big weapons tend to have very limited ammo supplies or other drawbacks.

I figure the extra fuel tank would make it feel a little less lame jumping systems, and give it a bit more breathing room

Military Hull reinforcement comes from the fact that I recently added this on my clipper and noticed NO decrease in top speed or maneuverability (thanks no doubt to how much over the Thrusters are in terms of Optimal Mass that it exceeded the diminishing returns threshold). However, since I don't have the PSG yet, I have yet to see how much of an impact that will have. I may end up reducing it to Reinforced to maintain optimal flight performance.

B grade shield cells are in part to save a bit of energy, but also they provide an extra cell and a higher overall recharge than their A counterpart (though each individual cell has less MJ, their total is greater)

 

[PulsarShark]

Your left column is mostly fine, I approve of the Military Grade Composite because it isn't too punishing on performance (except maybe for jump range, but am assuming you noticed the difference and accept the sacrifice).

I don't think you really need 25 minutes of life support for a Clipper, but if you just like to have that extra margin to make it to a large port in the event of a canopy breach, okay.

What is your reason for choosing A sensors? This is something I would not suggest unless you're hedging against the possibility of running into a CMDR who's using a stealth build; it will help you resolve him out of 'sensor-ghost' into a targetable contact at slightly greater range, but besides that, it's not terribly helpful. And if you aren't seeking challenging solo PVP and aren't operating with a wing, you'd probably want to run from a stealth CMDR anyway.

The idea here is the Prismatic Shield Generator frees up a Utility slot, providing more protection, without sacrificing versitility (the two non booster slots can be swapped out for other things as needed)

True. I've used a 6A prismatic/7E cargo scheme myself and found it good for versatility. Your 4 and 3 cargo racks are also good to swap around depending on what you're doing.

Due to the high power useage, I went with a C3 Beam (fixed) and C3 Pulse (gimbled). In this case, however, the Pulse will bind with both the beam for the Trigger 1 setting, and with the 2 multi cannons in the Trigger 2 setting - That way it can worth with both dedicated shield pounding (fixed C3 is great for that), and help wear down the hull without expending much more energy (I hope)

Interesting idea. I'm guessing you will find the fixed beam to be quite challenging to keep on-target against smaller, zippy ships, and this will limit your damage per second against them. It should be very nice for pummeling other Clippers, Pythons, Anacondas, Orcas, and T*'s though.

It took me a while to warm up to, but I'm now using a large Plasma Accelerator and medium railgun on one wing. The PA provides extra damage for those big ungainly targets, while the railgun puts additional hurt on the little ones. My main guns are a large and medium gimbled pulse on the other wing, and they do fine by themselves until I notice a need to kill something faster. The result is that the ammo on the 'fixed' wing actually lasts a long time - I can bounty hunt or undermine for several hours without running out. I've got fire groups set for (Lasers trigger 1, PA trigger 2) (Lasers trigger 1, rail trigger 2) (Rail trigger 1, PA trigger 2)

I figure the extra fuel tank would make it feel a little less lame jumping systems, and give it a bit more breathing room

Not quite following you here. I think adding a fuel tank to a Clipper only really makes sense if you're planning an epic hike, or do a lot of back and forth over long stretches of brown dwarfs. It really weighs down your jump range. And you have gone with a class 4 fuel scoop, which I do like because it cuts way down on your scooping time. Try it without the extra tank - I bet you'll like the bump up in jump range.

However, since I don't have the PSG yet, I have yet to see how much of an impact that will have. I may end up reducing it to Reinforced to maintain optimal flight performance.

I'm not the most fanatical about agility, but I have used Prismatics and Military Composite on the Clipper, and any reduction in maneuverability did not bother me. Reduction in boost speed of 10-20 is also more than acceptable in trade for the toughess you get.

 

[mossfoot]

Your left column is mostly fine, I approve of the Military Grade Composite because it isn't too punishing on performance (except maybe for jump range, but am assuming you noticed the difference and accept the sacrifice).

I don't think you really need 25 minutes of life support for a Clipper, but if you just like to have that extra margin to make it to a large port in the event of a canopy breach, okay.

What is your reason for choosing A sensors? This is something I would not suggest unless you're hedging against the possibility of running into a CMDR who's using a stealth build; it will help you resolve him out of 'sensor-ghost' into a targetable contact at slightly greater range, but besides that, it's not terribly helpful. And if you aren't seeking challenging solo PVP and aren't operating with a wing, you'd probably want to run from a stealth CMDR anyway.

Hmmm... an interesting point - Life Support doesn't use much juice regardless, but there is a huge power difference between D and A sensors, and that alone would allow me to use another Beam instead of a Pulse laser... Of course I used dual Beams before and it occurred to me that given the power drain the Pulse/Beam combo might be better (especially if the pulse then helps out the MCs in hull damage)

I tried swapping to D sensors before and did find the reduced range annoying, though I'll be damned if I can remember why right now.

Interesting idea. I'm guessing you will find the fixed beam to be quite challenging to keep on-target against smaller, zippy ships, and this will limit your damage per second against them. It should be very nice for pummeling other Clippers, Pythons, Anacondas, Orcas, and T*'s though.

Well, with smaller targets the C3 Pulse would work just fine against the shields, even if the beam missed a bit more freqently - but yes, the fixed beam is to pack a punch against larger ships primarily.

I tried the Plasma Accellerator (and cannons) and just didn't see them breaking down hulls the way I wanted. MCs provide more reliable steady damage.

Still, changing the sensors out does make that a possiblity again. So thanks!

Not quite following you here. I think adding a fuel tank to a Clipper only really makes sense if you're planning an epic hike, or do a lot of back and forth over long stretches of brown dwarfs. It really weighs down your jump range. And you have gone with a class 4 fuel scoop, which I do like because it cuts way down on your scooping time. Try it without the extra tank - I bet you'll like the bump up in jump range.

Difference between the two is minimal (fully loaded with extra fuel: 16.71/16.31/13.62, with cargo instead: 16.71/16.46/13.62) But it'll give you an extra jump and less likely to accidentally end up stranded and needing to call the Fuel Rats.

I'm not the most fanatical about agility, but I have used Prismatics and Military Composite on the Clipper, and any reduction in maneuverability did not bother me. Reduction in boost speed of 10-20 is also more than acceptable in trade for the toughess you get.

10 might be, 20 won't be. We'll see how it goes. I was very pleased to find Military Composites didn't kill my speed at all in my current build, however.

 

[mossfoot]

based on your feedback, I might try this

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...0302596ef2.Iw18aQ==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoots Clipper

 

[mossfoot]

Ha! After trying out the PA loadout above (non advanced) and then swapping to this:

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...2.Iw18aQ==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot's Clipper

I realized a problem I had with it - you're dividing up your firepower for no good reason other than to look cool.

With the beam/multicannon mix I was tearing things up in a High RES. With the beam/PA mix, I still did fine, but it took me twice as long to get results.

So it looks like I'm going back with what I know And thanks to your advice regarding life support and sensors, I can manage to run two full beams again with the PSG.

 

[Starender]

In my clipper i prefer the 8t fuel tank rather than 4t, it allows to jump to 85-100 Ly without refueling, it's a matter of preference of course.
About the military armor, since you only have 1 cell bank i understand and it makes sense.

Lastly, using big Pulses instead of the Beams let me 4 pips on System almost all the time. Before i used beams me to and i had to activate shield cells like crazy, once i replaced them for pulses i did 15 minutes of none stop fighting before i used 1 charge then another 10 minutes before the second charge.

Overall your last build is great, solid and balanced, the kind i like, this ship is a beauty.

 

[mossfoot]

In my clipper i prefer the 8t fuel tank rather than 4t, it allows to jump to 85-100 Ly without refueling, it's a matter of preference of course.
About the military armor, since you only have 1 cell bank i understand and it makes sense.

Lastly, using big Pulses instead of the Beams let me 4 pips on System almost all the time. Before i used beams me to and i had to activate shield cells like crazy, once i replaced them for pulses i did 15 minutes of none stop fighting before i used 1 charge then another 10 minutes before the second charge.

Overall your last build is great, solid and balanced, the kind i like, this ship is a beauty.

Thanks. I flip-flop on the Pulse/Beam issue. The dedicated power of dual beams means that on most ships you're going to burn through the shields before you run dry, then mop up with multi-cannons while the banks recharge. And on smaller ships those shields go very quick.

Pulses would be just fine against smaller ships, but what about larger ones (clipper and up)?

I might experiment with the Pulses that way, though, just to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Starender]

two big pulses is the most effective way to put down bigger shields, because you can shoot for a very long time, most effective damage/energy ratio

i guess you could take the best of both worlds by keeping the fixed beam, and replacing the gimba Beam for a gimba burst/pulse, that way you will have the option to put all pips to system and shoot for a long time

 

[mossfoot]

two big pulses is the most effective way to put down bigger shields, because you can shoot for a very long time, most effective damage/energy ratio

i guess you could take the best of both worlds by keeping the fixed beam, and replacing the gimba Beam for a gimba burst/pulse, that way you will have the option to put all pips to system and shoot for a long time

It's funny, but that's the loadout I started with way back. Gimbled Pulse, Fixed beam.

The question is, are pulses REALLY the most effective? I mean, in actual combat, rather than just crunching numbers. Chances are you are never going to maintain a long lock on a ship in a dogfight, so those beams are going to recharge between bursts of fire.

With a single fixed weapon you're also going to try to further conserve your shots for when you have a solid lock (granted you could go dual gimble for longer fire times, but then you run in to chaff issues, especially in PvP, better to have a single fixed one, in my opinion).

At this point it's a "to each their own" style I think. But I'll be sure to play with the Pulses and see how I do before making a final decision.

But then, is there EVER a final decision when it comes to outfitting ships?


As for the military armor - I have found absolutely NO difference in my speed or maneuverability with it as opposed to without it, because the thrusters are so far over the unlaiden weight (over double optimal). I notice a slight drop if I load up on cargo, though. So I figure might as well keep the armor. It's almost double what I had standard, which means I can stay in a fight longer and have a better chance of escaping if things turn hairy.

 

[mossfoot]

two big pulses is the most effective way to put down bigger shields, because you can shoot for a very long time, most effective damage/energy ratio

i guess you could take the best of both worlds by keeping the fixed beam, and replacing the gimba Beam for a gimba burst/pulse, that way you will have the option to put all pips to system and shoot for a long time

So, my latest set of compromises...

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...20302586ef2.Iw18aQ==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot

I tried the Gimbled Pulse/Fixed Beam compromise and enjoyed it. The fixed beam is worth having because of the shield damage output it has against larger ships, but the gimbled pulse doesn't put out that much less damage than a gimbled fixed. Basically 54mj vs 48mj output. But if I went dual pulse (fixed/gimbled) that drops to 40mj. Hard to say for sure if the extra damage is worth it, but it worked very well in the High RES I was in today.

I experimented with the Military grade armor, and without it my boost speed with 4 pips tops out at 439. My top speed with it was 437, and upgrading my sensors back to A class because I had the power to spare only dropped me down to 436. It also dropped my max jump range by about a quarter of a light year, so i might change it back to D.

In fact I might mess around with other little subsystems as well, but I think the overall look of the build it set.

 

[Starender]

About lasers it's a matter of preference, but from my experience i find the burst to be the easiest to use for fixed weapons, it allows to do "precise shots" by only clicking once when you are sure to hit the target, very economical and the hit chance is very high, i suggest you to try it.

I'm also a sensor A lover, it's so good when you hunt on asteroid fields and you can see from 7-8 kilometers.

I also believe that if we have that much internals, it's tempting to add minimum 2 shield cells, so i added another one is this build and i increased the max fuel for the "luxe" feel when traveling http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...3586e53.AwRhrSqj2I==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot

just pick what you like and reject the rest

PS: it could be a good idea to switch to reinforced armor like you said for a little more jump range, because the military is a heavy burden which will be useful very rarely, might as well reduce this burden a little

 

[mossfoot]

About lasers it's a matter of preference, but from my experience i find the burst to be the easiest to use for fixed weapons, it allows to do "precise shots" by only clicking once when you are sure to hit the target, very economical and the hit chance is very high, i suggest you to try it.

I'm also a sensor A lover, it's so good when you hunt on asteroid fields and you can see from 7-8 kilometers.

I also believe that if we have that much internals, it's tempting to add minimum 2 shield cells, so i added another one is this build and i increased the max fuel for the "luxe" feel when traveling http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...3586e53.AwRhrSqj2I==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot

just pick what you like and reject the rest

We're largely on the same page and I'll be sure to play around with the ideas - though I don't care for the two shield cell banks. I don't even want one, but since everyone uses them it's good to have one for emergencies.

I ended up fictionalizing my quest for loadout in my latest Violet's Tales of Whoa!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=167453&page=4&p=2749148&viewfull=1#post2749148

 

[PulsarShark]

Just to update re: sensors...
Since first posting here, I had the chance to experiment with a friend in a stealth DBS. It turns out that the 5A sensors on my Clipper didn't provide much advantage. I was only able to resolve and lock onto him at about 500m max once he was cold and silent running. This was about the same range reported by another buddy of ours in an Anaconda, who I believe was running 8D sensors.

 

[mossfoot]

PS: it could be a good idea to switch to reinforced armor like you said for a little more jump range, because the military is a heavy burden which will be useful very rarely, might as well reduce this burden a little

It's only a half light year difference, so I'll keep it as is

 

[mossfoot]

Just to update re: sensors...
Since first posting here, I had the chance to experiment with a friend in a stealth DBS. It turns out that the 5A sensors on my Clipper didn't provide much advantage. I was only able to resolve and lock onto him at about 500m max once he was cold and silent running. This was about the same range reported by another buddy of ours in an Anaconda, who I believe was running 8D sensors.

So other than getting a full readout on distant targets (say in the above mentioned RESs) there isn't a huge advantage to a 5D over a 5A?

So I've got my current loadout figured out, but for the future I'm thinking of adding something with extra punch. At first I was thinking about the Advanced Plasma Accellerator, but I've played around with the regular PA enough to know it NOT as effective as my current loadout in taking down ships. Being able to hit hard every two seconds is not as good as sustained fire from cannons and lasers in those same two seconds.

But what about the Imperial Hammer?

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_...18aQ==.IwBhrSqjxI==?bn=Mossfoot's Clipper Alt

That DPS listed is per shot, so a 3 shot burst would in fact do 15 damage rather than 5 (if all hit, which is likely because it's rapid fire).

My thinking is this, two weapon configs -

Config 1

Fire Button 1 - Beam and Pulse lasers
Fire Button 2 - Multicannon

Config 2

Fire Button 1 - Imperial Hammer
Fire Button 2 - Pulse Laser and Multicannon


Config 1 would be more for melting shields and ammo conservation. Config 2 would be more for after the shields are down. The Pulse Laser and Multicannon wouldn't heat up or drain energy much, leaving you free to use the Hammer as necessary.

It's a theory anyway. Just wish I could configure a third fire button instead

 

[Futuristic Kung Fu]

How about a fixed beam and gimballed burst, with multicannon and railgun for cleanup.

 

[mossfoot]

How about a fixed beam and gimballed burst, with multicannon and railgun for cleanup.

Gimballed burst uses a crap load of energy (no way to make it work in this loadout, I tried). And the DPS is one lousy MJ in difference.

Me, I like symmetry, I wish I could have both beams or both burst (but couldn't stand both pulse). But keeping one Pulse actually opens up options when switching over to Railgun. The problem with a railgun (Hammer or otherwise) is you have to time the shots just right, so it's good to have a couple of gimbles that don't drain huge energy or create excessiv heat that you can still hit with while lining up that shot

 

[Futuristic Kung Fu]

Gimballed burst uses a crap load of energy (no way to make it work in this loadout, I tried). And the DPS is one lousy MJ in difference.

Me, I like symmetry, I wish I could have both beams or both burst (but couldn't stand both pulse). But keeping one Pulse actually opens up options when switching over to Railgun. The problem with a railgun (Hammer or otherwise) is you have to time the shots just right, so it's good to have a couple of gimbles that don't drain huge energy or create excessiv heat that you can still hit with while lining up that shot

The correct answer is:

.

What. The. Heck?

First off burst lasers are not all they’re cracked up to be. They use almost as much energy as a beam, but don’t do as much damage. Also the C3s simply don’t target subsystems well and have poor armour penetration, in my experience.

And a railgun with a multicannon? Okay, I get the idea. Do a bit of damage while your railgun charges, and even if you miss you’ve done some damage to the subsystem. In theory. In fact, the multicannon also takes a bit of time to charge up. I just don’t see this working rather well.

The worst part? The energy output meant I needed to upgrade my powerplant from a B class to an A. Not only does that cost an extra ten million credits, but MF was very keen on keeping the B. The B class powerplant weighs sixty percent more than the A class, but that extra tonnage is mostly armour plating. The A class might give you more juice, but ask any Elite pilot what they aim for in a dogfight and the answer is always the same—the powerplant.

 

[mossfoot]

The correct answer is:

Heh. Well I upgraded my powerplant a while back for a variety of reasons and if it was just the Railguns I would stand by that assessment, but the Hammer is a bit different. It does (according to the wiki) 3x5 damage as opposed to the Railguns single 7. So there is the chance it'll be worth it. The next update means powerplant are no longer install kills, so there's that.

 

[Futuristic Kung Fu]

Heh. Well I upgraded my powerplant a while back for a variety of reasons and if it was just the Railguns I would stand by that assessment, but the Hammer is a bit different. It does (according to the wiki) 3x5 damage as opposed to the Railguns single 7. So there is the chance it'll be worth it. The next update means powerplant are no longer install kills, so there's that.

Does the "heh" mean you get it?