Optimal hull mass shields?!

[Noobilite]

I was looking this up as it confused me on stuff I was looking at. What I saw said it's based on base hull mass. Ok... The quetion I have is why does hull mass have a stat in relation to shields to start with?! What is the relevants or need for this to start? is it just an artificial balance issue to limit shields?

I was reading this btw. I'm assuming shields still use base hull mass for optimal shield mass.

That makes me think. Have they thought of adding a new item that is base ship structure that can change the base hull value to either pump up or lighten and potentially weaken base hull structure... Basically add structure under armor like Eve. Maybe make it attackable like modules with some consequences. Might let you lighten the ship for exploration or bulk it up for extra defence. Maybe it aids in blocking shots for module hits to make you aim better(maybe a free weaker MRP for reinforced that doesn't take up a different type of slot.). Like armor in carriers where placement is key.. or who knows what.

And on another side note. This forum had better not start auto changing english words with a U from american versions without. I will leave this forum!!! >< I swear it keeps happening. I do not type U's in my words unless they should be there..

 

[nosleepdemon]

Lorewise, the higher thr mass of your ship, the more difficult it is for shields to form around them. I think it is for balancing too.

You can't lighten your ship's stock hull as it already starts with lightweight alloys, but it can be reinforced (and made heavier) by purchasing different hull armour. E.g. Reinforced, Military grade etc. Having a lightweight grade above alloys would be cool though. However, engine speed and handling is also affected by mass...

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I was looking this up as it confused me on stuff I was looking at. What I saw said it's based on base hull mass. Ok... The quetion I have is why does hull mass have a stat in relation to shields to start with?! What is the relevants or need for this to start? is it just an artificial balance issue to limit shields?

I was reading this btw. I'm assuming shields still use base hull mass for optimal shield mass.

That makes me think. Have they thought of adding a new item that is base ship structure that can change the base hull value to either pump up or lighten and potentially weaken base hull structure... Basically add structure under armor like Eve. Maybe make it attackable like modules with some consequences. Might let you lighten the ship for exploration or bulk it up for extra defence. Maybe it aids in blocking shots for module hits to make you aim better(maybe a free weaker MRP for reinforced that doesn't take up a different type of slot.). Like armor in carriers where placement is key.. or who knows what.

And on another side note. This forum had better not start auto changing english words with a U from american versions without. I will leave this forum!!! >< I swear it keeps happening. I do not type U's in my words unless they should be there..

I would not mind a slight change in modules so that ARMOUR is ARMOUR and BULKHEADS are BULKHEADS.

So military grade bulkheads are ARMOUR and a separate choice for BULKHEADS.

Armour = Resistance and hull HP
Bulkheads = Modify module HP and resistances

This way we could create...flying eggs basically where we have superior outer armour but to save weight we have a fragile interior superstructure that is more sensitive to weapons that penetrate armour.

 

[Ophion]

My question is this:
If the shield forms around the ship to protect it, shouldn't the size of ships surface be the main and only factor in shield strength, apart from shield class?

Lets say there's only one type of shield available. If you put that shield on a small ship, it will be stronger than if you put the same shield on a big ship, but not because of mass but because of the different surface size the shield has to wrap around.

That's more logical to me than the way it is in the game, but then again, what do I know...

 

[StiTch]

If you are just looking at the highest shield capacity for a given ship with the stock highest class shield gen, it's sort of meaningless. Each ship has a "shield value" that is hidden and determines the strength of its shields, so FD can effectively tell what shields each ship should have.

However it has relevance in a couple of main areas when ya go into a little more detail:

1) It changes how well your ship downsizes shield generators. For example the 'conda has just 400T hull mass, and consequently though it has a C7 slot, can use a C6 shield gen and lose almost nothing. Hell, it can use a C5 shield gen two classes down and loses considerably less than a third, and if you desire can use a class 3 gen at 4 whole classes down from max. However if the iCutter with 1100T hull mass drops two classes of shield gen, it loses half its capacity or so - and two classes down is the most it can do; it physically cannot equip a gen three classes down.

2) It affects certain changes through engineering and prismatic shields

 

[Noobilite]

My question is this:
If the shield forms around the ship to protect it, shouldn't the size of ships surface be the main and only factor in shield strength, apart from shield class?

Lets say there's only one type of shield available. If you put that shield on a small ship, it will be stronger than if you put the same shield on a big ship, but not because of mass but because of the different surface size the shield has to wrap around.

That's more logical to me than the way it is in the game, but then again, what do I know...

That is what I was thinking. Mass is the wrong value. Maybe they haven't quantified it yet.. Do shields work on the surface of the ship also or a bubble around it. That would determine how hard it is to do. Assuming calculating surface area is hard with the ship models...

That would add a lot more dynamics to shields vs armor.

 

[Ophion]

That is what I was thinking. Mass is the wrong value. Maybe they haven't quantified it yet.. Do shields work on the surface of the ship also or a bubble around it. That would determine how hard it is to do. Assuming calculating surface area is hard with the ship models...

That would add a lot more dynamics to shields vs armor.

Let's be clear: I'm not asking for the changes in the game but just wondering about the logic used in the game.

To answer your question, when you shoot at a ship, you can see a bubble around it. I would rather prefer something more like the new data point scanner effect in Beta that follows the contours of the object than the current bubble effect.

 

[sidereal6]

shouldn't the size of ships surface be the main and only factor in shield strength, apart from shield class?

Yes, and something like that is actually modeled, but it's not a stat that you can actually see. It's like what StiTch said above, you just have to add a shield to a ship and see what the value ends up being. Here are two examples:

Adder with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 102MJ

iCourier with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 340MJ

 

[akaliel]

Yes, and something like that is actually modeled, but it's not a stat that you can actually see. It's like what StiTch said above, you just have to add a shield to a ship and see what the value ends up being. Here are two examples:

Adder with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 102MJ

iCourier with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 340MJ

This always bugged me with Elite. Having the hidden ship values makes the logic of the modules pure nonsense (looking at you thrusters!).

 

[sidereal6]

This always bugged me with Elite. Having the hidden ship values makes the logic of the modules pure nonsense (looking at you thrusters!).

"pure nonsense" is overstating it. There is a clear relationship between modules - some are better than others. And there's a relationship between ships - some have a higher "hidden" value.

Pythons gain more protection from a shield than Asps do, and Asps gain more protection than Gunships do. Class A shields are stronger than class E shields.

It's true you can't see the hidden value that makes an Asp different from a Python, but you can see the effect and it makes perfect sense.

 

[Adhock]

The values are not hidden. You're just not looking for them.

I'll write ANOTHER workup on how shields work when I get home. I've answered this topic six times already.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The values are not hidden. You're just not looking for them.

I'll write ANOTHER workup on how shields work when I get home. I've answered this topic six times already.

One is hidden. Dropships and gunships have the same mass, but with the same shield do not have the same MJ. There is a hidden modifier.

 

[dmulligan]

Another example is the Adder and ICourier as pointed out above by sidereal6. Both ships have a hull mass of 35T and different shield MJ values with the same shield generator.

 

[Adhock]

One is hidden. Dropships and gunships have the same mass, but with the same shield do not have the same MJ. There is a hidden modifier.

Federal Dropship has 200.

Federal Gunship has 186.

Each shield generator has a modifier value. This is PLAINLY STATED in the shield generator part itself.

Here we see a Class 6 shield generator. It's optimal hull tonnage rating (determined by Class which determines the size of the generator) is 540 tons.

It's optimal hull strength multiplier is 100%. That means if you fit it to a Dropship that weighs exactly 540 tons hull mass. It's shield output as seen on the Shipyard value will remain unchanged.

However the Dropship's mass isn't 540t. It's 580.

It's going to take a penalty to it's shields because it's hull mass (defined as area surface, or space the ship takes up in this case) exceeds the shield's comfortable range. As you can see here the Strength multiplier is 100. It ranges to a minimum of 50% to 150%.

So likely fitting a Class 6C is going to get you a 10% penalty meaning you're only flying with 90% of your shields available.

Rating affects the multiplier. A class A rating gives you a 120%. That penalty puts you back down to around 110%.

So overall you have stronger shields with a class A despite exceeding your hull tonnage because of the VERY VISIBLE multiplier rating dictated by component rating.

In the case of the Gunship. It has a lower base shield rating as seen in the shipyard comparison photos. So of course even if things are multiplied the same. It's going to have a lower shield value when all is said and done.

Nothing is hidden.

Everything is visible.

You just aren't looking.

 

[dmulligan]

Both the Dropship and the Gunship have the same hull mass of 580T. So why does the same class shield generate different shield strengths for each ship?

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

My question is this:
If the shield forms around the ship to protect it, shouldn't the size of ships surface be the main and only factor in shield strength, apart from shield class?

Lets say there's only one type of shield available. If you put that shield on a small ship, it will be stronger than if you put the same shield on a big ship, but not because of mass but because of the different surface size the shield has to wrap around.

That's more logical to me than the way it is in the game, but then again, what do I know...

This is the way a shield would work if it were radiated according to the inverse square wave law for electromagnetic radiation. Strength would be proportional to the area, and would inversely vary with the radius squared.

If shields vary according to the mass of the contained vessel, then we are looking instead at (maybe?) a spacetime distortion bubble. Given how the frameshift drive works, that tech would also be available for shield generators, and shields would be VERY good at stopping solid objects, less good at lasers, which is sort of how they are.

A spacetime distortion is how a black hole looks in the game. Sort of glossy.

 

[Kaocraft]

Yes, and something like that is actually modeled, but it's not a stat that you can actually see. It's like what StiTch said above, you just have to add a shield to a ship and see what the value ends up being. Here are two examples:

Adder with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 102MJ

iCourier with 3A shield: hull mass = 35T, unladen mass = 67T, laden mass = 75T, shield strength = 340MJ

Yup. The iClipper and the new Chieftain illustrate this principle well. Their nacelles substantially extend the area that the shield envelope has to cover, thereby giving them "weak" shields in proportion to other ships of similar size and mass.

 

[AsukaZ]

My question is this:
If the shield forms around the ship to protect it, shouldn't the size of ships surface be the main and only factor in shield strength, apart from shield class?

Lets say there's only one type of shield available. If you put that shield on a small ship, it will be stronger than if you put the same shield on a big ship, but not because of mass but because of the different surface size the shield has to wrap around.

That's more logical to me than the way it is in the game, but then again, what do I know...

I agree, Surface area would seem to be more of a factor than mass, but intuition is often a poor predictor in science. It's not unreasonable to think it could be the other way (maybe something to do with the Higgs boson in ways I can't possibly imagine), especially if it's more convenient from a coding/simulation perspective, it's all handwavium anyway.

Having said that I did come across this interesting bit of news.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a14683/boeing-patent-plasma-shield/

From what they're describing I'm thinking the power required to generate a shield of a certain volume (thus surface area) rises exponentially as it gets bigger, not a problem if you've mastered fusion power, but indicating surface area is the dominent factor using this technique. But in the 3300's who's to say ?

 

[Arthur Shappey]

...
In the case of the Gunship. It has a lower base shield rating as seen in the shipyard comparison photos. So of course even if things are multiplied the same. It's going to have a lower shield value when all is said and done.

Nothing is hidden.

Everything is visible.

You just aren't looking.

I'm not sure I get your explanation at all. When you say "nothing is hidden" - all you appear to expose is the fact that we can indeed see the resultant change in shield MJ from the Shipyard screen. Not the why.

If you take an Imperial Courier and an Adder. Fit them both with 3E shields, adjust their unladen and fully laden mass to be 70T and 78T respectively, and their native hull mass is both 35T - then you get a resultant shield MJ of 78MJ for the Adder and 260MJ for the Imperial Courier. After building these two to match, the shipyard only shows the shield MJ as being different - with no explanation as to why.

There is nothing I can see on the shield stat screen to suggest it should be giving a different output for each ship.

Can you help enlighten as to what the precise name is of the input stat that is different that is causing such a whopping difference in MJ? There is a different of hardness - but it is small, and there is no indication it is used (and not technically visible!). There is a very visible difference in ship shape but that is not reflected in any visible stat.