Option for CMDRs complaining about OP AI
- Thread starter Chongo
- Start date
Not really that helpful of a post, I take it you are being sarcastic and dismissive with the "just sayin'" and "learning how to fly" so please accept a rebuttal.
The return to harmless would surely be abused, sadly not an option.
As I pointed out in another one of these thread on 2.1, some of us don't have the option to "git good". I'm privileged to be a young'en with pretty good reactions and control of my hands. Others are a touch older, possibly suffer from disability or other issues.
Whilst a degree of difficulty is appreciated we all need to remember (as you subliminally point out) that Elite has no levelled areas and no difficulty setting, the only affect on difficulty is combat rank and that's cumulative so even the worst player will eventually rack up kills.
To this end I'd suggest a logger-artificial AI, same thats used in Left For Dead series. There the game detects when you are barely managing and throws a few weapons/medkits etc your way. If it feels like you are doing too well and having it too easy, bam, zombie hoarde or tank dropped on you.
Very difficult system to implement and it'd probably be 3.0 before it's ready to even beta test but honestly having played against AI in a Viper/Eagle and Courier I found myself targeting tiny little ships not in wings. I didn't feel "safe" even in a combat FDL, only really got the safe feeling in an engineered ship. And if I had that experience with my ridiculous time spent in game and somewhat youthful reactions/controls then I think it is a valid point for those of us that don't have either of those.
Don't misunderstand - strong signal sources, Haz Res, High intensity combat zones etc I'd like to see the AI as good as a human, it's the ultimate aim anyway. I just fear alienating a significant section of the fan base, many of which that came from the original Elite series.
The return to harmless would surely be abused, sadly not an option.
As I pointed out in another one of these thread on 2.1, some of us don't have the option to "git good". I'm privileged to be a young'en with pretty good reactions and control of my hands. Others are a touch older, possibly suffer from disability or other issues.
Whilst a degree of difficulty is appreciated we all need to remember (as you subliminally point out) that Elite has no levelled areas and no difficulty setting, the only affect on difficulty is combat rank and that's cumulative so even the worst player will eventually rack up kills.
To this end I'd suggest a logger-artificial AI, same thats used in Left For Dead series. There the game detects when you are barely managing and throws a few weapons/medkits etc your way. If it feels like you are doing too well and having it too easy, bam, zombie hoarde or tank dropped on you.
Very difficult system to implement and it'd probably be 3.0 before it's ready to even beta test but honestly having played against AI in a Viper/Eagle and Courier I found myself targeting tiny little ships not in wings. I didn't feel "safe" even in a combat FDL, only really got the safe feeling in an engineered ship. And if I had that experience with my ridiculous time spent in game and somewhat youthful reactions/controls then I think it is a valid point for those of us that don't have either of those.
Don't misunderstand - strong signal sources, Haz Res, High intensity combat zones etc I'd like to see the AI as good as a human, it's the ultimate aim anyway. I just fear alienating a significant section of the fan base, many of which that came from the original Elite series.
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Craith
Volunteer Moderator
Such a scaled difficulty would be one of the worst things they could do ... ok maybe a bit melodramatic, but I'd be totally against it. I want to win or lose because I am good or not good enough, not because the computer took pity in my flying or decided that it would be time for my scheduled beating.
Edit: don't forget that the system authority reacts faster in high security systems, and is a help and not only a distraction. So there are some kind of easier areas come 2.1
Edit: don't forget that the system authority reacts faster in high security systems, and is a help and not only a distraction. So there are some kind of easier areas come 2.1
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True, it's a difficult balancing act. L4D1 & 2 also had a difficulty slider to allow this artificial AI lesser or greater control as well as a survival mode which was just brutal if memory serves correctly
I'm in two minds as my post hopefully showed, part of me wants this awesome AI to continue to it's peak and kudos to SJA for her amazing work, although I get conflicted. Just the other week I was reading about a military chap who was flying left handed as he had lost the use of his right. Whilst I don't doubt his determination and ability to adapt for 1 second I don't want him to feel he simply can't keep up... Again totally in 2 minds here.
Hopefully FD can come up with some innovative solution...
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I'm a pretty good combat pilot. I know how to fly and fight with FA off and I'm fine taking on multiple ships. This might have something to do with skill for some players but not all. The AI in 2.1 is far from balanced, it is MUCH harder than it should be and it's not a bad thing to point that out.
Agreed, I actually have enjoyed the combat with the new NPCs, it's not an automatic win, and having to think (and check rank and wing status) before engaging is not a bad thing.
Hopefully some of the 'matchmaking' will be done not just through a player's combat rank, but through the ranking of missions and the like, making the big challenges opt-in, rather than forced.
The game should not force players out of it, and I'm pretty sure FD don't want to do that anyway. It wouldn't be good for business.
Its not that hard, more challenging I would say.
I ask a couple of sincere questions, after flying Beta 2, 3 and 4. Do you not think that the "OP" comes from the weaponry with which the AI are equipped, rather than just the combat skill? Do you think they are flying with weapon upgrades of the type available through Engineers?
I can't prove it, of course, but the rate at which they strip my shields just seems to be too fast. If so, give AI the regular weapons that are available and let them use skill to fight us. Because in the real game, when 2.1 is released, it will be a slow process to upgrade our own weapons, anyway. And the imbalance between AI weapons and weapons available to Commanders will be so much the greater.
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Yeah the combat ability is not the problem, it is good to not have the spinning suicide NPCs - however the hugely overpowered "tooled-up" weaponry is a real pain, it is quite honestly a complete mess and needs some serious rethinking.
I'm going to post a couple of vids shortly that will hopefully show what players will be up against when 2.1 goes live (presuming that things stay the same as they are now).
It's not so much a, 'what to do', more of a 'what not to do'...
Being in the camp of those who don't get hours on end to play the game, and also (though I hate to admit it) getting a little closer towards my middle years, I'm reading some of this "OP AI" business with a little concern. I avoid PvP both because I just plain hate people, and want to play this game PvE, but also because I know damn well that the type of person who will take me on, is going to be some over-amped hyper-player type who spends hours every night playing and is probably on their third Elite commander since launch, where I'm still only halfway through Master on my first commander.
In other words, I know that if I enter PvP, I'm going to die. If I enter combat against the AI I know I'm pretty much going to win out, however.
So I understand the gulf in challenge there, and I understand the calls to toughen up the AI. I'd personally like the AI to sit somewhere between where it is now, and insta-death.
Having said that, I'm going to go with it, no matter how tough it becomes. It is what it is. I'll do my best to adapt, and if I need to change my ships, or my loadout, even my game play style, then I'll do that. That's part of playing a game like this. New challenges.
I'd also just like to point out that in Elite '84, it was easy to get caught in a combat situation against the AI where you never stood a chance. The same should be true of E: D also.
In other words, I know that if I enter PvP, I'm going to die. If I enter combat against the AI I know I'm pretty much going to win out, however.
So I understand the gulf in challenge there, and I understand the calls to toughen up the AI. I'd personally like the AI to sit somewhere between where it is now, and insta-death.
Having said that, I'm going to go with it, no matter how tough it becomes. It is what it is. I'll do my best to adapt, and if I need to change my ships, or my loadout, even my game play style, then I'll do that. That's part of playing a game like this. New challenges.
I'd also just like to point out that in Elite '84, it was easy to get caught in a combat situation against the AI where you never stood a chance. The same should be true of E: D also.
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And you get it, people shouting gloom and doom are the people saying 'I am a pretty good pilot' but this is just ridiculous. If you have to preface your statement with that, I can guarantee you are a pilot. I know I am average, maybe above average pilot, many people much better than I am. I can currently engage a wing of 2 elite pythons and a FGS in a corvette and have them all 3 dead in the water in about a minute... Then just mop up. If I don't get my ass handed to me by that in 2.1, then the AI is too weak.
Both, they are better combat pilots but they also have stronger weapons as well.
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The AI in Beta 4 aren't even close to comparing with a Human Commander, so don't fret too much. They are better than the space potato's there are in 2.0, but they're not super computers by any stretch.
So this got me interested in combat again, decided to do some testing with a bit of a bigger ship (so far I've only pitted Eagles/Cobras/Couriers vs the AI)
So I just took a heavily heavily upgraded FDL (not engineered) to a Haz Res.
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70O,A725Rr5Rr5Rr5Rr0_g0_g0_g0Wg01Q01Q,319Y7_6Q6u9Y6u5A,7Sl15O7go4xo9ok
Swap out the huge PA for a Huge pulse laser, I put myself in the boots of a RES farmer.
Round 1 testing:
Results in 1 hours hunting = 660k profits
No hull damage received, 2 SCB's used, significant chaff used (~40%).
Ships fought = FDL & Vulture in wing, few eagles/adders. Elite Fed Assault ship and 2 Pythons.
I used all the tricks in the book: chaff, FA-off, pip management, ramming and asteroid dodging.
Round #2 testing
This time no pip management (2/2/2), no FA off. No asteroids (signal source) and no ramming.
Elite Cobra & Dangerous Viper in wing at a signal source. Killed the cobra fairly easily but the Viper got me before my SCB could activate. Anyway, it turns out missiles hurt, had him down to about 30% hull when all my pulse lasers and chaff etc started malfunctioning. Had to bail taking about 20% damage myself before escaping even with security arriving to assist.
7k repairs & 57k profit.
Overall I'm less bothered by the AI changes than I was in the smaller ships. It's going to drastically hit profits for bounty hunters imo but it was a more interesting battle than in 2.0.. I still think further improvements will be a danger to the less skilled pilots who will have to either save for a well defended ship or pick their fights very very carefully.
Key lessons I took from this as an experienced pilot - Fit point defence. Fit a kinetic damage weapon. All pulse lasers just doesn't cut it anymore. Take the FDL not the Python, I struggled to keep some ships in view let alone in firing arc.
So I just took a heavily heavily upgraded FDL (not engineered) to a Haz Res.
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70O,A725Rr5Rr5Rr5Rr0_g0_g0_g0Wg01Q01Q,319Y7_6Q6u9Y6u5A,7Sl15O7go4xo9ok
Swap out the huge PA for a Huge pulse laser, I put myself in the boots of a RES farmer.
Round 1 testing:
Results in 1 hours hunting = 660k profits
No hull damage received, 2 SCB's used, significant chaff used (~40%).
Ships fought = FDL & Vulture in wing, few eagles/adders. Elite Fed Assault ship and 2 Pythons.
I used all the tricks in the book: chaff, FA-off, pip management, ramming and asteroid dodging.
Round #2 testing
This time no pip management (2/2/2), no FA off. No asteroids (signal source) and no ramming.
Elite Cobra & Dangerous Viper in wing at a signal source. Killed the cobra fairly easily but the Viper got me before my SCB could activate. Anyway, it turns out missiles hurt, had him down to about 30% hull when all my pulse lasers and chaff etc started malfunctioning. Had to bail taking about 20% damage myself before escaping even with security arriving to assist.
7k repairs & 57k profit.
Overall I'm less bothered by the AI changes than I was in the smaller ships. It's going to drastically hit profits for bounty hunters imo but it was a more interesting battle than in 2.0.. I still think further improvements will be a danger to the less skilled pilots who will have to either save for a well defended ship or pick their fights very very carefully.
Key lessons I took from this as an experienced pilot - Fit point defence. Fit a kinetic damage weapon. All pulse lasers just doesn't cut it anymore. Take the FDL not the Python, I struggled to keep some ships in view let alone in firing arc.
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Love the new AI, would still like to reset Pilot federation rank. So I can progress through them again!
1) We already have "return to Harmless" button.
2) AI isn't hard, they just use different tricks and more of them. You'll come around.
2) AI isn't hard, they just use different tricks and more of them. You'll come around.
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Sounds reasonable. Much more reasonable than "stercus, stercus, moriturus sum". Thanks for the testing.
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That button is already there.
We don't need a "Return to Harmless" option, as long as your NPC opponents match your combat skills/ship more closely than they do now.
That said, as with earlier upgrades to Sarah Minions, when CMDRs who'd been flying around in unshielded, undefended, lightweight alloy, maximum capacity cargo ships suddenly find themselves hearing "Pew! Pew! Pew! Eject! Eject! Eject!" they're going to whine about it. Well Boo Hoo hoo! They can't say they weren't warned. They can't say they didn't know they ought to harden their ships or buy tougher ones. They should try to think of it as evolution in action.
I'm seriously considering wiping my save when this update comes out (as I've done 6 times before). One advantage of doing so, at least in the short term, is that I'll keep my actual combat skills, but the NPCs won't know that.
P.S. The thread is called "Option for CMDRs complaining about OP AI". I thought "OP" meant "Original Poster", but that doesn't fit this usage.:S
That said, as with earlier upgrades to Sarah Minions, when CMDRs who'd been flying around in unshielded, undefended, lightweight alloy, maximum capacity cargo ships suddenly find themselves hearing "Pew! Pew! Pew! Eject! Eject! Eject!" they're going to whine about it. Well Boo Hoo hoo! They can't say they weren't warned. They can't say they didn't know they ought to harden their ships or buy tougher ones. They should try to think of it as evolution in action.
I'm seriously considering wiping my save when this update comes out (as I've done 6 times before). One advantage of doing so, at least in the short term, is that I'll keep my actual combat skills, but the NPCs won't know that.
P.S. The thread is called "Option for CMDRs complaining about OP AI". I thought "OP" meant "Original Poster", but that doesn't fit this usage.:S