Option to remove head movement from combat ....

[indiebob]

Not all movement. Camera shake etc is fine in my book but please add the option to remove or lessen the head tilt up when pulling back on a joystick. So that it doesn't obscure such vital information as your throttle setting at low speeds, target shield % etc. Yet another #WTFrontier design decision.

No, the "pay to win" solution of buying a webcam and running iTracker is not acceptable.


EDIT: Best fix I found was to put headlook into accumulate mode and switch off view recentering then manually lower my view.

Still far from perfect as it means I can't use my view to look around in "direct" mode as I like to but better than nothing.

This invalidates most of the arguments below against an improved view and maybe an alternative solution would be to allow the user to set a new default centre view for headlook. No, i don't think the fact I have found this workaround is "gameplay" or that it gives me a possible advantage over people who haven't worked it out is a good thing (no one below suggested it).

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

Just in case you didn't know, when you hit the 'UI Focus' key/button, you pull your head back to get a full view of the forward HUD, allowing you to see throttle, target info, power settings, etc. The default binding is Left Alt on the keyboard... not sure what it is on a joystick. I actually find it fairly quick and easy to tap it as a quick glance. I found learning to use it was an enjoyable skill to master as part of combat flying, just like balancing power.

I don't agree it's a weird design decision at all.

 

[indiebob]

Just in case you didn't know, when you hit the 'UI Focus' key/button, you pull your head back to get a full view of the forward HUD, allowing you to see throttle, target info, power settings, etc. The default binding is Left Alt on the keyboard... not sure what it is on a joystick. I actually find it fairly quick and easy to tap it as a quick glance. I found learning to use it was an enjoyable skill to master as part of combat flying, just like balancing power.

I don't agree it's a weird design decision at all.

A lot of Ed players seem to enjoy "Jumping through hoops needlessly = skill gameplay". Not me. It's just not needed and causes problems, there are all sorts of elaboerate solutions which are more work than it being in there at the start, so why is it even in there?

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

A lot of Ed players seem to enjoy "Jumping through hoops needlessly = skill gameplay". Not me. It's just not needed and causes problems, there are all sorts of elaboerate solutions which are more work than it being in there at the start, so why is it even in there?

Well, I can only reply to this specific thing, rather than a general thing like 'jumping through hoops needlessly'.

But if you think about it, if you took what you're saying to an extreme, you could complain that there isn't a button that you can press that makes you win the combat, and anything else is just needlessly jumping through hoops.

So for me, it's like this. When you're combat flying, part of the challenge is managing your ship and all the information coming at you at the same time. We're vulnerable to something called 'tunnel vision', when we tend to focus on one thing to the exclusion of others.

Combat in Elite seems to know that and has been set up to punish you if you lose concentration and start getting tunnel vision.

Now if you're using a head tracker, or VR, I'm assuming you'll do this naturally - you have to remember to look at your HUD to check the throttle, or target info. Tunnel vision should happen naturally there.

If you're not though, then you have the whole screen in front of you, pretty much all in your field of vision, and that doesn't change. You can still get tunnel vision, but flicking your eyes over a monitor is a lot easier than turning your head. Making it so there's a key to press to yank your head back and take a moment to take in stuff around you, while still trying to stay on your target's tail, or whatever else you're trying to do, and then artificially inducing tunnel vision, seems like a really cool way of solving that. When you're madly throttling up and down, the tunnel vision happens on screen, and it's up to you to just hold a key for a second - the equivalent of stopping and thinking 'whoa, wait a sec, how are my shields? am I still at max manouevrability?'... in short, it leaves it up to you to break your own tunnel vision, while giving you a simple tool to do it that isn't that hard to use. Like I said, I enjoy that rather than just numbers on damage and shields, there are intangibles like this in the combat system of Elite that play on our vulnerabilities, and expect us to learn that they're there and then create processes and drills to overcome and avoid them.

If it really does bother you though - do you know if adjusting the FOV gives you more vision vertically? Or is it only a wider view you get? Could be worth a try.

 

[indiebob]

But if you think about it, if you took what you're saying to an extreme, you could complain that there isn't a button that you can press that makes you win the combat, and anything else is just needlessly jumping through hoops.

Look at it like this. I have never heard such a nonsense. You I very much doubt you could make a coherent argument for a "win combat" button. if you think you can, let's hear it.

If you're not though, then you have the whole screen in front of you, pretty much all in your field of vision, and that doesn't change.

Yes it does change... obscuring most of the console...

Why does your head do this in the game? gforces push the head down not up - so you'd see more of the console if anything.
No I don't like games that manipulate me down a narrow tunnel of how I have to do things "because reasons".

I am not trying to stop people who want to play like this, i'd just like the ability to switch it off. Maybe switch the way the two behaviours work so that you can select which is default (look away from instruments/look at the ceiling and look at instruments) and which you press a key to correct.

Making it so there's a key to press to yank your head back and take a moment to take in stuff around you, while still trying to stay on your target's tail, or whatever else you're trying to do, and then artificially inducing tunnel vision, seems like a really cool way of solving that.

No. Just no. human field of vision is about 116 degrees plus 60 or 70 degrees on the periphery with eyeballs which can move independent of the head and can move as rapidly as I can move my eyeballs from one part of the screen and increase this further...

Plus the existing set up is not a "look down" button it's a "switch to console mode where all manner of other controls change" button.

Now if you're using a head tracker, or VR

If people want to use one of these they can but using them to correct the design of a program seems ludicrous. I hate head trackers and find them immersion breaking. When I move my eyes /head I want to look at what I face, not turn the game camera to look at something else. They are not part of the product and shouldn't be required to play it.

If it really does bother you though - do you know if adjusting the FOV gives you more vision vertically? Or is it only a wider view you get? Could be worth a try.

yes FOV is a cure of sorts but not ideal. Makes everything smaller which is a handicap in combat etc. so I am not much better off.

A far better solution is for Frontier to give players the option.

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

Look at it like this. I have never heard such a nonsense. You I very much doubt you could make a coherent argument for a "win combat" button. if you think you can, let's hear it.



Yes it does change... obscuring most of the console...
http://i.snag.gy/J6Dub.jpg

Why does your head do this in the game? gforces push the head down not up - so you'd see more of the console if anything.
No I don't like games that manipulate me down a narrow tunnel of how I have to do things "because reasons".

I am not trying to stop people who want to play like this, i'd just like the ability to switch it off. Maybe switch the way the two behaviours work so that you can select which is default (look away from instruments/look at the ceiling and look at instruments) and which you press a key to correct.



No. Just no. human field of vision is about 116 degrees plus 60 or 70 degrees on the periphery with eyeballs which can move independent of the head and can move as rapidly as I can move my eyeballs from one part of the screen and increase this further...

Plus the existing set up is not a "look down" button it's a "switch to console mode where all manner of other controls change" button.



If people want to use one of these they can but using them to correct the design of a program seems ludicrous. I hate head trackers and find them immersion breaking. When I move my eyes /head I want to look at what I face, not turn the game camera to look at something else. They are not part of the product and shouldn't be required to play it.


yes FOV is a cure of sorts but not ideal. Makes everything smaller which is a handicap in combat etc. so I am not much better off.

A far better solution is for Frontier to give players the option.

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

Firstly, I wasn't making an argument for an 'I win' button, I was deliberately showing where your argument about jumping through hoops leads. My point is that if you take that argument to an extreme, someone could simply say, "Why can't I have a button that wins the combat for me when I press it? Everything else is just jumping through hoops."

The whole point of the combat experience is the challenge of managing your ship against the threats that face it. You are given tools to do so, and you use them. Right from outfitting your ship, to how you fly it, how you aim the weapons, how you manage your power, whether you maintain situational awareness. All that requires you to do things to succeed, such as knowing when to fire so you don't miss. To me, this is just one of those things.

And yes, I'm aware that it obscures the console - that's exactly what I was talking about. Talking about the human field of vision completely misses the point that to me it replicates tunnel vision (not the medical condition, but the human tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of others, especially when under stress) - it deliberately obscures it and expects you to remain aware of that, and gives you the tool (with a single keypress) to correct it. If you forget to do it, then that's on you.

Trying to make this about having gameplay choice seems odd. To me that's the same as saying "I should be able to fly successfully in combat without firing my weapons", or "I shouldn't have to manage my power if I don't want to, because that's manipulating me down a narrow tunnel of how I have to do things".

Fundamentally, there are some basic things you can do right or wrong in combat. That isn't taking away freedom. That's fundamental to the game; without that, there's no challenge, and no gameplay - you learn how to fly by trial and error and there most definitely are right and wrong things to do. Ramming an Anaconda in an Eagle is almost always the wrong thing to do (though it can be fun). Fitting an A-rated shield, A-rated shield boosters and SCB's when you don't have the power to run them is the wrong thing to do. The game will punish you when you deploy your hardpoints and everything switches off.

You can insist that this is a 'mistake', or make it sound like an error in the design that needs correcting.

I'm still going to disagree with you. Checking my HUD takes a split second, and timing it right is part of the challenge of flying. I actually like that it makes me do that. If it is part of a deliberate design choice, then making it an optional thing that can be turned off would clearly be wrong - if it's intended as part of the challenge of combat flying then it can't be optional.

 

[indiebob]

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

Firstly, I wasn't making an argument for an 'I win' button, I was deliberately showing where your argument about jumping through hoops leads. My point is that if you take that argument to an extreme, someone could simply say, "Why can't I have a button that wins the combat for me when I press it? Everything else is just jumping through hoops."

The whole point of the combat experience is the challenge of managing your ship against the threats that face it. You are given tools to do so, and you use them. Right from outfitting your ship, to how you fly it, how you aim the weapons, how you manage your power, whether you maintain situational awareness. All that requires you to do things to succeed, such as knowing when to fire so you don't miss. To me, this is just one of those things.

And yes, I'm aware that it obscures the console - that's exactly what I was talking about. Talking about the human field of vision completely misses the point that to me it replicates tunnel vision (not the medical condition, but the human tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of others, especially when under stress) - it deliberately obscures it and expects you to remain aware of that, and gives you the tool (with a single keypress) to correct it. If you forget to do it, then that's on you.

Trying to make this about having gameplay choice seems odd. To me that's the same as saying "I should be able to fly successfully in combat without firing my weapons", or "I shouldn't have to manage my power if I don't want to, because that's manipulating me down a narrow tunnel of how I have to do things".

Fundamentally, there are some basic things you can do right or wrong in combat. That isn't taking away freedom. That's fundamental to the game; without that, there's no challenge, and no gameplay - you learn how to fly by trial and error and there most definitely are right and wrong things to do. Ramming an Anaconda in an Eagle is almost always the wrong thing to do (though it can be fun). Fitting an A-rated shield, A-rated shield boosters and SCB's when you don't have the power to run them is the wrong thing to do. The game will punish you when you deploy your hardpoints and everything switches off.

You can insist that this is a 'mistake', or make it sound like an error in the design that needs correcting.

I'm still going to disagree with you. Checking my HUD takes a split second, and timing it right is part of the challenge of flying. I actually like that it makes me do that. If it is part of a deliberate design choice, then making it an optional thing that can be turned off would clearly be wrong - if it's intended as part of the challenge of combat flying then it can't be optional.

No. We have already established that you can get round this by head tracking devices. The view movement implemented is not something your eyes would naturally do in combat or something that g-forces would do or anything other than something implemented because it looked cool without thinking of the consequences.

If it is an integral part of combat, it should be designed so that users of eye/head tracking couldn't see the console either or that I couldn't by repositioning my view using headlook controls so that my head is 5 degrees lower before combat [unfortunately this means I have to disable "direct" mode on my view settings and switch to "accumulate" and disable the "recentre view when not in headlook" option. Hence I suggest either, implement something to reset the "forwards" view or switch cosmetic eye movement off during combat]. here's a screen shot I just took which gives a ridiculous amount of console viewable whilst pulling back on my joystick.



Yes this is a workaround, though not perfect and a bit Heath Robertson. It proves that all arguments about an intrinsic combat difficulty are nonsense. Yes, the self-empowered no doubt love this "Elite not holding your hand" whilst the rest of us just put it down to poor design/functionality. I would love to be able to have my direct mode headlook and see my console during combat in the default "headlook centred" view. Thanks.