Overheads

[Snakebite]

IRL I run a couple of business's and one thing that you can't escape in business is OVERHEADS, they really work against your bottom line and are one of the things that make making a profit challenging.

I really find that overheads are missing from ED, OK you have to buy fuel but apart from that there is very little overhead. And guess what else is missing ? CHALLENGE.

I mean really, making a profit is a no brainer, especially from trade. It is virtually impossible to actually run at a loss, and hence it holds no real challenge.

We NEED some more overheads just to make earning a living in ED a bit more of a challenge.

I Propose the following.

1) Docking fee - Different levels depending on system/faction/station type/pad size required)
2) Berthing charge - an hourly or daily rate chargeable whether or not you are online.
3) Ship maintenance/service - This was already in First encounters and it should be in ED
4) Ship insurance - should be optional maybe but charge it daily and without it ship = total ship loss
5) Wages - Big ships need crews right ? This was already in First Encounters anyway
6) Bribery - Why not have to bribe officials to get goods onto the black market. Not applicable in anarchy stations because guess what, there is no law hence no illegal goods.
7) TAX - we pay taxes IRL why not in ED - Anarchy systems should be zero taxes so as to make it a reward for trading in dangerous systems.
8) Fines, yep more fines for minor infractions such as speeding in a station. Except in anarchy systems, obviously.
9) Hold cleaning, them cargo holds get dirty right, you should have to get them cleaned out from time to time.
10) pest control, a big ship can often get a trumble infestation, those pest controller charge you know ?

 

[Lunchmoney]

1) Docking fee - Different levels depending on system/faction/station type/pad size required)

I can get with that.

2) Berthing charge - an hourly or daily rate chargeable whether or not you are online.

err... No, thanks.

3) Ship maintenance/service - This was already in First encounters and it should be in ED

This is already in the game in the form of the maintenance on the Repairs services

4) Ship insurance - should be optional maybe but charge it daily and without it ship = total ship loss

Insurance is fine. Leave it alone.

5) Wages - Big ships need crews right ? This was already in First Encounters anyway

Big ships have more crew seats that need filling. Do it

6) Bribery - Why not have to bribe officials to get goods onto the black market. Not applicable in anarchy stations because guess what, there is no law hence no illegal goods.

Or bribe to avoid a fine. Corrupt officials exist - they need to be in the game

7) TAX - we pay taxes IRL why not in ED - Anarchy systems should be zero taxes so as to make it a reward for trading in dangerous systems.

The docking fees would probably cover this loss. Any more and many people will start to have a nerdrage.

8) Fines, yep more fines for minor infractions such as speeding in a station. Except in anarchy systems, obviously.

I think it is OK as is, at the moment.

9) Hold cleaning, them cargo holds get dirty right, you should have to get them cleaned out from time to time.

200t of Tea dont complain about the mess

10) pest control, a big ship can often get a trumble infestation, those pest controller charge you know ?

Just another levy, not needed.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

1) Maybe this could work
2) Very much no. (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150956) (quoting myself tl:dr

So if I log-off floating 7km away from the station instead of docked inside I save a ton of money?
Sounds like intuitive gameplay to me... (Sarcasm)

- Just from a gameplay 101 perspective if people leave the game for weeks or months you don't get them back by hammering their character into the ground for being offline so long.
- This would make people even less willing to do PvP since thats much more likely to result in hull/module damage and require a station repair.

3) Already in under repair with module degredation
4) Yeah, insurance revamp has been discussed by many, main issue is it's so established now any major change will incur as much
5) Need a crew before paying them wages (empty co-pilots seats in all ships) - This will just become a large ship tax until they actually provide some reason/graphics for the crews existence. Maybe add it in on multi-crewed ships update so you can have a friend be the co-pilot or pay for an NPC one.
6) Pirates are already beaten into the dirt enough (I think there may be a profit boost in 1.3) <- If pirates get a buff then this is a decent idea
7) I assumed taxes are incorporated into your trade rate. Also if you are selling for profit the stations want the goods you deliver allowing them to refine them/whatever and create their goods to sell, they should be giving you a rebate not an additional tax.
8) Sure, bigger fines and bounties for heaviest infractions im ok with.

9 & 10 I cannot understand if you are being serious or not. Its a game not real life. Sure a perfect life simulator would be nice. Wait nope, it would suck.

3rd time I've posted this but Elite is not a simulator and Elite is not a game.

If it were 100% simulator we'd have Newtonian combat and a ton of other things and it would be boring as a game.
If it were 100% game it would be fun to play but not immersive.

The problem is that you make it too realistic then the gameplay suffers, the fanbase leaves except the hardcore crowd and the game dies. You make it too arcade game style with free instant re-spawns and the player base enjoys it for 2 months and leaves since its not challenging enough.


Tl:dr This isn't real life, why should we put the things we hate into something we should enjoy.


Edit: I got ninja'd on every single point with pretty much exactly what i've said. +1 rep for glitching the matrix.

Further Edit: On re-reading the OP I would say taxes on larger ships are feasible since they have the disposable income but do you remember trying to trade your way out of a sidewinder/hauler, because I sure do and a docking charge/berthing fee/cargo cleaning charge may have made me quit right there in week 1

 

[Arjin]

What the hell is with all the make us pay more fees posts lately anyways????

Pay taxes in real life so make us pay tax in a game...sigh.....Only the sheep let their paychecks be siphoned off....

EDIT: And for the record income taxes IRL is theft pure and simple...

 

[Snakebite]

What the hell is with all the make us pay more fees posts lately anyways????

Pay taxes in real life so make us pay tax in a game...sigh.....Only the sheep let their paychecks be siphoned off....

EDIT: And for the record income taxes IRL is theft pure and simple...

It has to be fun, and that requires challenge, the current model is no challenge because every trade run is an easy profit, too easy, no challenge, no fun

 

[Alex Brentnall]

It has to be fun, and that requires challenge, the current model is no challenge because every trade run is an easy profit, too easy, no challenge, no fun

I agree there needs to be more challenge but taxes isn't challenge it is just a slowdown. They may as well just reduce the profit margins if they wanted to do that instead of doing it in a confusing and roundabout way.
Challenge is facing an ever changing universe and adapting to survive (or not and perishing). Challenge should be something that everyone faces differently, that you can try strategies against.

To take your real world example of a company paying overheads. To make money you have to employ staff and cleaners and everything else, ergo not a challenge. But if a competitor company sets up and starts selling the same thing as you that is a challenge that you can overcome by: buying them out, taking them to court, reducing your prices, creating a better product etc.


Summary: Taxes are not a challenge just a progress slower.

 

[Arjin]

It has to be fun, and that requires challenge, the current model is no challenge because every trade run is an easy profit, too easy, no challenge, no fun

I understand it's easy peasy, but taxes, fees siphon off my efforts, there needs to be other possibilities for making trading more challenging. In space trading what is the challenge? Pirates? finding a great route? not crashing your ship if you run with no shields? Ok so these are some basic challenges, but what about?

Ship malfunctions, fire in the cargo hold have to depressurize the cargo bay and lose some cargo in the process? Fraud, bought 200 tons of palladium but were actually sold copper? Hyper Jump malfunction and end up 100lyrs away?

Just some random ideas, anything but taxes and fees!!!

I agree there needs to be more challenge but taxes isn't challenge it is just a slowdown. They may as well just reduce the profit margins if they wanted to do that instead of doing it in a confusing and roundabout way.
Challenge is facing an ever changing universe and adapting to survive (or not and perishing). Challenge should be something that everyone faces differently, that you can try strategies against.

To take your real world example of a company paying overheads. To make money you have to employ staff and cleaners and everything else, ergo not a challenge. But if a competitor company sets up and starts selling the same thing as you that is a challenge that you can overcome by: buying them out, taking them to court, reducing your prices, creating a better product etc.


Summary: Taxes are not a challenge just a progress slower.

Agreed!

 

[metatheurgist]

Considering the high pitched whining noise you get from some complaining about insurance. I don't wanna log into the forum to see complaints from people losing their ships because they didn't play for a week and the docking fees made them criminals.

 

[Vasious]

1) Docking fee - Different levels depending on system/faction/station type/pad size required)

I agree

2) Berthing charge - an hourly or daily rate chargeable whether or not you are online.

Ship storage costs were discussed in the DDF so makes sense

3) Ship maintenance/service - This was already in First encounters and it should be in ED

We have ship Integrity which is pretty much the same idea, remember in FE2 & FFE you only need to service your ship once every 6 months to a year

4) Ship insurance - should be optional maybe but charge it daily and without it ship = total ship loss

No need to confuse people by changing whatwe have in place

5) Wages - Big ships need crews right ? This was already in First Encounters anyway

Once we have crew, Yes

6) Bribery - Why not have to bribe officials to get goods onto the black market. Not applicable in anarchy stations because guess what, there is no law hence no illegal goods.

Sounds good, and as suggested here by Winterwalker, have the Black market name replaced with something less obvious and random in each station

7) TAX - we pay taxes IRL why not in ED - Anarchy systems should be zero taxes so as to make it a reward for trading in dangerous systems.

Assume the price we pay includes Tax in civilized systems and removed it in Anarchic systems to provide a benefit to trading there along with the risk.

8) Fines, yep more fines for minor infractions such as speeding in a station. Except in anarchy systems, obviously.

Fine for collisions whilst speeding is fine

9) Hold cleaning, them cargo holds get dirty right, you should have to get them cleaned out from time to time.

Cargo is stored in discrete sealed canisters, not in bulk in the actual hold.

10) pest control, a big ship can often get a trumble infestation, those pest controller charge you know ?

Would be interesting for if you visit systems with an outbreak you do need to pay for a all clear certification.

Replies in Red Bold

- - - Updated - - -

2) Very much no. (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150956) (quoting myself tl:dr

So if I log-off floating 7km away from the station instead of docked inside I save a ton of money?
Sounds like intuitive gameplay to me... (Sarcasm)

From an IC point of view, makes perfect sense.
Don't want to pay the docking and berthing fees?
Set yourself up in a parking orbit of the station whilst you eat/sleep etc etc
Capital ships do, not that they can dock, but the parking orbit thing.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

<snip>

From an IC point of view, makes perfect sense.
Don't want to pay the docking and berthing fees?
Set yourself up in a parking orbit of the station whilst you eat/sleep etc etc
Capital ships do, not that they can dock, but the parking orbit thing.

I get the whole charge per docking could work but a time based cost means there would literally be no reason to ever log off inside a station or outpost. It would just mean everyone is pretty much forced to leave stations/outposts before logging off and it would add a new problem for absolutely 0 benefit. And before you say make the fee small enough it would either be worth flying off the pad of it would be insignificantly small (in which case it become something you ignore anyway).
Also it'd give everyone one more chance to whine...

On the other hand I would be 100% behind any fine for staying outside the hangar area for too long since that takes up docking ports. Make it a 0.017% of ship cost per minute so an hour on the pad would cost you 1% of your ship or something...

 

[Vasious]

I get the whole charge per docking could work but a time based cost means there would literally be no reason to ever log off inside a station or outpost. It would just mean everyone is pretty much forced to leave stations/outposts before logging off and it would add a new problem for absolutely 0 benefit. And before you say make the fee small enough it would either be worth flying off the pad of it would be insignificantly small (in which case it become something you ignore anyway).
Also it'd give everyone one more chance to whine...

On the other hand I would be 100% behind any fine for staying outside the hangar area for too long since that takes up docking ports. Make it a 0.017% of ship cost per minute so an hour on the pad would cost you 1% of your ship or something...

It was just a nice touch in FE2 and FFE when you docked you got a message saying
"Welcome to Snaffleport, enjoy your stay, you docking fee of 2 CR has been deducted from your account"
And if you were there a while, I think it ticked at midnight
"We hope you're enjoying your stay, your berthing fee of 2 CR has been deducted from your account"

Have a good bank of Faction themed messages that can go with those messages and make the galaxy feel a little bit more alive as after all 2 credits is nothing
It isn't about the cost it is about adding those little real life concerns to add life to the universe.

Get an email in your ships inbox
"Greets Cmdr Joe Blogs, for you 3 stored ships, a berthing fee of 21 CR has been deducted from your account for the week ending 29/06/3301"

 

[markl.nz]

None of those ideas will work very well when you're only able to start with 1000Cr and a Sidey...

If you want to simulate a proper "business" then you have to build some form of external financing into it - banks, investors, loan sharks, whatever. If you can make money with the 1000cr then great, but if you're going to get serious with all those other things then you should have the option also of going into debt to expand your "business" - take out a loan to get better equipment or a new, bigger ship. And then you have to pay it back of course - different types of lender will have different styles - a bank might be harder to get a loan from in the first place, but have lower interest rates, and be somewhat lenient on missed payments, etc. than a loan shark for example, who might send the heavies around to break an arm if you miss a payment...

 

[Alex Brentnall]

It was just a nice touch in FE2 and FFE when you docked you got a message saying
"Welcome to Snaffleport, enjoy your stay, you docking fee of 2 CR has been deducted from your account"
And if you were there a while, I think it ticked at midnight
"We hope you're enjoying your stay, your berthing fee of 2 CR has been deducted from your account"

Have a good bank of Faction themed messages that can go with those messages and make the galaxy feel a little bit more alive as after all 2 credits is nothing
It isn't about the cost it is about adding those little real life concerns to add life to the universe.

Get an email in your ships inbox
"Greets Cmdr Joe Blogs, for you 3 stored ships, a berthing fee of 21 CR has been deducted from your account for the week ending 29/06/3301"

Hmm, like I say I get the one off charge per dock but for staying there I'd either have a gameplay only time so it doesn't count your offline time or not have a time based charge at all.

I currently just assume since all stations totally rely on ships to protect, supply them and make money for them that they cover the costs of your stay since they need you more than you need them. (in most cases)