P2P is broken

Zylark · Jun 28, 2015

In 1.2 we could through some massaging of the mechanics get good battles of 24 to 32 players. Now it is impossible. What more is, just getting a single wing in an instance is a struggle.

Nevermind trying to chase an opponent from normal space into supercruise, chances are, he's gone. In another instance.

Through back-channels I've gotten notion that through ninja-nerf, the instancing have been reduced from a max of 32 down to 16...

I mean really, is this now what this supposed MMO is, pandering only to single wings with no organized PvP?

I am sick and tired of the limitations of the current P2P system. It hinders all kinds of organized effort. And the problem is just made worse by PowerPlay. How is one supposed to fight ghosts in Solo, group and god forbid Xbone in order to achive a Powers goals for a given cycle? I am sorry, but tilting at windmills is not fun. This need change. Soon.

Give us MASSIVE instances - put some dedicated servers to the task. As an added bonus, it would kill cheats pretty fast. Yes, it will cost, but that could be distributed by letting player-groups have the ability to rent dedicated instancing servers that would cover a given number of systems for instance. P2P is fine for the not very populated outback of the galaxy, but for the central hubs of activity, not so much.

Anything would be better than the current disaster that is the P2P model with regards to well player-populated areas. As it is now, it ruins the game for a lot of us.

Temple604 · Jun 28, 2015

I agree the instancing problems in this game are a serious problem that needs to be addressed. It is causing a lot of frustration and discourages players from continuing to play the game. I was excited about powerplay bringing in a new pvp element of fighting over systems, but it seems anytime more than a few wings of players show up we can't all play the game together anymore

Battleship Kickass · Jun 28, 2015

Instancing is by far the biggest issue in the game for me. Even a bandaid fix like MANUALLY being able to switch instances by selecting from a list of instances with current number of players in it in normal space, then changing to that instance when going to SC would be fine with me.

OnePercent · Jun 28, 2015

Instancing is bad because of P2P altogether, it is a blatantly inferior system to HTTP client-server

However P2P is CHEAAAAAAAAP and HTTP is COOOSTLY and seeing as the game is a pay once play forever MMO, the developers have to weigh the costs of the systems.

If the game was subscription based it would allow Frontier to sustain a HTTP set up but since they don't, they use P2P.

Asp Explorer · Jun 28, 2015

%OnePercent% said:
Instancing is bad because of P2P altogether, it is a blatantly inferior system to HTTP client-server.

HTTP? you have absolutely got to be joking.

kurush · Jun 28, 2015

Asp Explorer said:
HTTP? you have absolutely got to be joking.

He just has no clue, no joke at all

Elite Dangerous combat in HTTP calls would be spectacular. FTP would be even cooler I think.

Julissa Silver · Jun 28, 2015

kurush said:
Elite Dangerous combat in HTTP calls would be spectacular. FTP would be even cooler I think.

You haven't lived if you haven't tried to play a game on a BBS.

Zylark · Jun 28, 2015

kurush said:
He just has no clue, no joke at all Elite Dangerous combat in HTTP calls would be spectacular. FTP would be even cooler I think.

Jokes aside, keep on track. P2P as implemented now is not very helpful for the future growth and longevity of the game. The current implementation hinders organized group-play, which in turn discourages people gathering in groups to begin with. People being social animals, this threatens the recruitment to the game through word of mouth and 'trapping' players in groups.

In short, the current P2P model is not a viable long term strategy for the growth of the game. Casual players got a short attention span. Those that invest time in a game do so because of the social aspect.

kurush · Jun 28, 2015

Zylark said:
Jokes aside, keep on track. P2P as implemented now is not very helpful for the future growth and longevity of the game. The current implementation hinders organized group-play, which in turn discourages people gathering in groups to begin with. People being social animals, this threatens the recruitment to the game through word of mouth and 'trapping' players in groups.

In the last MMO I played there was a manual way to switch instances, ED just needs the same thing. What's funny, that game was server-based and had almost the same issues, the % guy can call it HTTP based

Let's see how long it would take FDev to reinvent this particular wheel.

Vasious · Jun 28, 2015

Zylark said:
Through back-channels I've gotten notion that through ninja-nerf, the instancing have been reduced from a max of 32 down to 16...

You lost me there sorry.
It is never a bug always a conspiracy

I mean statements like
"Such problems are usually encountered when one of the connected clients is unable to use UPnP to open a port on their NAT. The game is then forced to fall back onto a backup system. This system is unfortunately not 100% reliable and will cause this behaviour."

are clearly a cover-up on for a ninja-nerf

Wings & private groups networking issues
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=160601

Faybs · Jun 28, 2015

Julissa Silver said:
You haven't lived if you haven't tried to play a game on a BBS.

US Robotics REPRESENT!

Also, I really miss dial-up tones. The speed sucked, but logging in had character.

Samosa · Jun 28, 2015

Faybs said:
US Robotics REPRESENT!

Also, I really miss dial-up tones.

I don't miss the phone bill for Usenet at 2400 baud.

Edit: BBS access was free of course, 2600+2400 Hz

Psycho Romeo · Jun 28, 2015

Can ED even be technically called an MMO? Last I checked, 16 players in an instance doing a thing is an aspect that described just normal multiplayer online games. That massively aspect comes from the persistence and the scale of the player space.

SteveLaw · Jun 28, 2015

Psycho Romeo said:
Can ED even be technically called an MMO? Last I checked, 16 players in an instance doing a thing is an aspect that described just normal multiplayer online games. That massively aspect comes from the persistence and the scale of the player space.

I tend to agree but the argument seems to be that those 16 players are taken from the massive pool of available players. Even if technically it can be described as an MMO I think that even if it's helped it sell more copies, it's also done a lot of harm in that players expect certain things from an MMO (rightly or wrongly) that ED doesn't really give them. "Multiplayer" would have been enough to describe it.

Temple604 · Jun 28, 2015

Vasious said:
I mean statements like
"Such problems are usually encountered when one of the connected clients is unable to use UPnP to open a port on their NAT. The game is then forced to fall back onto a backup system. This system is unfortunately not 100% reliable and will cause this behaviour."

Wings & private groups networking issues
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=160601

For an average computer user, how hard should it be to decipher even what all this means?
I have heard that it is better if your router is port-forwarded but it'll take me hours to even figure out how/if I can even do that.
Seems to me that the game shouldn't require advanced knowledge of how to tweak your connection to get it working properly.

SteveLaw · Jun 28, 2015

Temple604 said:
For an average computer user, how hard should it be to decipher even what all this means?
I have heard that it is better if your router is port-forwarded but it'll take me hours to even figure out how/if I can even do that.
Seems to me that the game shouldn't require advanced knowledge of how to tweak your connection to get it working properly.

Router issues are not unique to ED nor only P2P games.

Vasious · Jun 28, 2015

Temple604 said:
For an average computer user, how hard should it be to decipher even what all this means?
I have heard that it is better if your router is port-forwarded but it'll take me hours to even figure out how/if I can even do that.
Seems to me that the game shouldn't require advanced knowledge of how to tweak your connection to get it working properly.

It should be common knowledge for the average computer user
Of course that sounds very condescending of me, but I am no computer wiz, I only learnt what was needed to port forward to play Multiplayer games
There will be a guide for your router, and it is fairly straight forward once you get what all the different things mean.
Can be as simple as log in to the router, select the port forwarding menu option, enter in the numbers provided.

Once you have gone it you will have an Aha moment

Its like providing directions

SteveLaw · Jun 28, 2015

Vasious said:
It should be common knowledge for the average computer user

I work in IT Support, I have no such illusions.

Asp Explorer · Jun 28, 2015

I agree. Without trying to sound condescending, using a networked computer is a bit like driving a car. You can just sit in it and drive and have fun, but if something goes wrong - it's nice to know how to swap out a wheel, replace a blown lightbulb, or jump start a dead battery.

It's not hugely technical.

Jmanis · Jun 28, 2015

SteveLaw said:
I work in IT Support, I have no such illusions.

This. The average user knows how to open Outlook and call IT support to say "I can't download the Internet, what's going on?"

To assume UPnP and NAT can even be spelt out in full by the average computer user, let alone understood, is a massive stretch of the imagination.

- - - Updated - - -

Asp Explorer said:
I agree. Without trying to sound condescending, using a networked computer is a bit like driving a car. You can just sit in it and drive and have fun, but if something goes wrong - it's nice to know how to swap out a wheel, replace a blown lightbulb, or jump start a dead battery.

It's not hugely technical.

Not hugely technical sure, but I'd wager most drivers *can't* do that. A friend (bless her cotton socks) put oil into the radiator when her oil light came on...