Currently, when you jump into a system several NPC's will spawn within a few seconds. They can be reset by jumping in and out of SC. Is there any reason all the systems could not have persistent NPC's that are present whether or not a commander was in the system?
Persistent NPCs?
- Thread starter Threeofseven
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Yah, they have to exist somewhere. Right now they only exist in a player's computer. When you leave SC that entire bit of running code evaporates; there's no CPU time devoted to keeping that sim going. If you're in the instance of another player and you return to it, you're loaded with what that player kept running while you were away. That's why sometimes you drop into a station or system you notice that there's already a bunch on stuff in the system or it's what was there when you left it; you jumped into some other player's sim or returned to it.
To keep it running for every planet would be to potentially have the code running for 20000 situations in the 20000 inhabited system in the bubble. I'm not sure you could accomplish that with 20K raspberry PIs and that would probably be the cheapest solution.
To keep it running for every planet would be to potentially have the code running for 20000 situations in the 20000 inhabited system in the bubble. I'm not sure you could accomplish that with 20K raspberry PIs and that would probably be the cheapest solution.
I see. I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to these things. Could the master server not take care of it? The reason I ask is because certain information about the billions of systems are stored to some degree, such as rotation, current orbit positions etc.
Short simple version
Billions of systems..you hit the nail on the head.
The universe uses a high degree of procedural generation to keep central data size down to a minimum, so planet types etc (and probably positions?) are just calculated using the same seed for each commander.
The upshot is we all end up seeing the same thing even if the data isn't stored.
Metatheurgist is right in that NPCs don't have any existence outside of a player-occupied instance, but I've always wondered why a few local status flags can't be stored such that returning to a location within a certain time window will force the game to spawn new NPCs with the same names, ships and loadouts as the ones that were there before. The memory overheads for that would seem relatively tiny, but maybe it's more to do with integrating that data with the new spawns. Nobody except FD knows enough about how the code works to really speculate on that.
The random nature of the way it works right now is quite jarring. Sometimes I'll drop from a supercruise instance full of NPCs into a real-space instance and when I re-enter supercruise the same NPCs as before are there waiting. Other times there'll be an empty instance that slowly fills with completely different NPCs. It's all down to the will of the network gods as to whether another player is able to keep that original instance "alive" while I'm elsewhere, and to let me reconnect when needed. It's all a far cry from the persistent NPCs that were proposed back in the day, but they've largely been retconned into Powerplay figureheads and mission board Faction representatives so the chances of this being addressed as part of the "core" changes seem slim. Random, non-mission NPCs are basically just cannon fodder and cannon fodder doesn't need persistence.
The random nature of the way it works right now is quite jarring. Sometimes I'll drop from a supercruise instance full of NPCs into a real-space instance and when I re-enter supercruise the same NPCs as before are there waiting. Other times there'll be an empty instance that slowly fills with completely different NPCs. It's all down to the will of the network gods as to whether another player is able to keep that original instance "alive" while I'm elsewhere, and to let me reconnect when needed. It's all a far cry from the persistent NPCs that were proposed back in the day, but they've largely been retconned into Powerplay figureheads and mission board Faction representatives so the chances of this being addressed as part of the "core" changes seem slim. Random, non-mission NPCs are basically just cannon fodder and cannon fodder doesn't need persistence.
I'd like to see persistent NPCs in regards to "real NPCs" being there as part of a story.
At the moment we have random guys doing whatever random things.
Only similarities are that all systems in the same state look the same.
But there are no regional NPCs...
Like...
Pirate Lord "Silverbeard" sitting in this Anarchy station in system X and plundering ships within 15 lightyears.
Let him be a bad***, Elite Corvette in a wing of 4, with improved AI. And let them kill people and High Wake. Until someone conquers their station.
It is a bit... disappointing how the game does not offer any non-curated stories after so much time.
At the moment we have random guys doing whatever random things.
Only similarities are that all systems in the same state look the same.
But there are no regional NPCs...
Like...
Pirate Lord "Silverbeard" sitting in this Anarchy station in system X and plundering ships within 15 lightyears.
Let him be a bad***, Elite Corvette in a wing of 4, with improved AI. And let them kill people and High Wake. Until someone conquers their station.
It is a bit... disappointing how the game does not offer any non-curated stories after so much time.
The billions of systems are called by algorithms. They aren't persistent either. They are only generated when called. Do you really think it would make sense (performance and cost) to simulate a galaxy that is used and explored only a fraction of a percent? That would make no sense.
Also persistent NPCs - they aren't needed either - the only thing that should be looked at is making them persistent (damage, location) for missions. Why would there be NPCs simulated in the server if nobody needs them?
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that is the dream... and they are in the DDF.
its unlikey they will ever be ALL persistent (tho personally i would like FD to obfuscate this a little more) but some persistent npcs were meant to be in the game, my expectation was they would be tied to our save and stored on our machine
On a related point, I noticed something for the first time yesterday. A naughty pirate NPC (not mission-related) interdicted me but ran away when I got it down to 5% - then, en-route to the station, the same NPC interdicted me again but it was still at 5% (they didn't last long enough to run away this time). I had always seen them come back magically repaired - is this new or have I just never noticed it before?
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Without persistent NPC characters, you cannot have a narrative. Whether meta or personal, in order for narrative to exist, you need choices, consequences, conflict. You need vendetta's and alliances. Scores to settle.
You can't have Malcolm Reynolds or Han Solo without teal, persistent enemies whose pursuits, vendetta's and alliances matter. This game NEEDS tons of persistent voice acted characters with whom our reputations matter, who we can work for, double cross, spy on, wheel and deal with...
I asked this question on a q&a earlier this year and Sandro answered it - I asked if NPC persistence between instances was as good as it was ever likely to get.
Sandro answered 'no', and said that it was possible to improve it.
I asked the same question on the forum to Michael Brookes in 2015, and he also indicated that it was possible to improve it and that they wanted more persistence in general.
Sandro answered 'no', and said that it was possible to improve it.
I asked the same question on the forum to Michael Brookes in 2015, and he also indicated that it was possible to improve it and that they wanted more persistence in general.
voice acted? that is a big and possibly unrealistic ask... but as for the rest, it is something i think many of us are hoping for.
I agree, voice acted seems a bit of a stretch - unless everyone has the same antagonists and so on - even then...
Still, I hold out (long term) hope for some sort of procedural approach. I suspect that will be a while though and then you've got to figure out how to manage some sort of generative narrative - there are systems for that but it is still early days really. And translate that in to reasonable non-boring repetitive silly speech for the speech engine. Hmm. I suspect there are a few research projects in this
Also lots of non-game applications...Then you've got to be careful how to manage persistent NPCs if you can just kill them then they won't persist very long - and players will do this, pretty much all the time and at every opportunity.. So how to make them non-killable most of the time but vulnerable sometimes. Tricky.
I agree though more persistence of NPCs in general would be nice. Doesn't have to be much but a bit more would be lovely thanks.
In theory, it would be possible for FDEV to generate NPCs procedurally in the same was as planets etc are generated.
The problem is: you cannot destroy a planet, but you can destroy an NPC. So, there should be a database of which NPCs have been killed by players (in a way similar to the database of which planets have been discovered).
The way instancing works makes this however a lot more complicated: say player A kills NPC X in his instance. What happens to NPC X in the instance of player B? What happens if later on player A joins the instance of player B?
The choices FDEV have made regarding P2P networking and instancing solved a lot of their short-term problems, but it makes expanding the game in a meaningful way a lot harder in the long run.
The problem is: you cannot destroy a planet, but you can destroy an NPC. So, there should be a database of which NPCs have been killed by players (in a way similar to the database of which planets have been discovered).
The way instancing works makes this however a lot more complicated: say player A kills NPC X in his instance. What happens to NPC X in the instance of player B? What happens if later on player A joins the instance of player B?
The choices FDEV have made regarding P2P networking and instancing solved a lot of their short-term problems, but it makes expanding the game in a meaningful way a lot harder in the long run.
Story NPC =/= NPC. The cannonfodder doesn't need persistence. And whether we need that story content is disputable. I rather have it not if it's not properly narrated.
why not store npcs on our own harddisk tied to own own save. sure it would limit what we could do with them a bit, but Jim smith could be tied to my save and a mission giver who lives in lave and seems persistant to me. the fact that no one else ever sees jim smith UNLESS i happen to be doing a mission trying to protect his trade ship in open and someone gets synced to my bubble is moot.
he would SEEM persistant to me.
seems to be putting everything on frontiers servers is holding us back. would this be a potential to cheat? maybe but i am sure if FD limited what we could do with these npcs then what harm could come of it? i feel the same for npc crew and even some small bases on small planets that we could help npcs evolve.
all this stuff would be trivial if FD just give up on the control they insist on due to "mmo" (and as i already stated, DB was clear, he does not consider ED to be an mmo in the generic sense)
IF i ever delete my harddisk without backing up, then i lose all of it, and just get to keep my CMDR data which is stored on FDs servers.... but for the most part if its just "fluff" it would not be the end of the world.
he would SEEM persistant to me.
seems to be putting everything on frontiers servers is holding us back. would this be a potential to cheat? maybe but i am sure if FD limited what we could do with these npcs then what harm could come of it? i feel the same for npc crew and even some small bases on small planets that we could help npcs evolve.
all this stuff would be trivial if FD just give up on the control they insist on due to "mmo" (and as i already stated, DB was clear, he does not consider ED to be an mmo in the generic sense)
IF i ever delete my harddisk without backing up, then i lose all of it, and just get to keep my CMDR data which is stored on FDs servers.... but for the most part if its just "fluff" it would not be the end of the world.
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That might work for solo players.
It's not "trivial" when people get to play together and suddenly there is different states for everyone with a NPC.
I'm not entirely sure why people (presumably) playing in Solo or PGs would care if they're seeing the same NPCs as other players.
My first thought is that's be totally bonkers because it'd mean I might be in a RES, by myself, in Solo, and all the NPCs would just start exploding because another player, also by themselves, in Solo, was destroying them.
When you're actually IN the same instance as other people, the NPCs are consistent.
Surely that's all you could ever want, need or hope for?
Asking for NPCs to be consistent across ALL modes is asking to have Solo and PG modes removed.
My first thought is that's be totally bonkers because it'd mean I might be in a RES, by myself, in Solo, and all the NPCs would just start exploding because another player, also by themselves, in Solo, was destroying them.
When you're actually IN the same instance as other people, the NPCs are consistent.
Surely that's all you could ever want, need or hope for?
Asking for NPCs to be consistent across ALL modes is asking to have Solo and PG modes removed.