Petition to remove/rebalance Frag cannons

elkiller

E
Too many times i have seen fully engineered codas corvettes and cutters being killed in less than 5-7 shots by commanders using pacifiers and Large G5 frags and flying vultures and clippers. since it has been forever and the weapons has not been balanced i Propose a removal or a re balance of the Frags/pacifiers. no other weapon in the game has the same impact on the 3 large as these weapons. is bad game design to have a god weapon and here is the numbers for all to see:

2 3C fixed frags G5 double shot =498.5 DPS

2 3C fixed pacifiers G5 double shot = 367 DPS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 3C fixed multis G5 overcharged = 78.4 DPS

2 3C fixed cannonG5 overcharged = 79.4 DPS

2 3C fixed cannonG5 overcharged = 79.4 DPS

2 3C fixed burstG5 overcharged = 70.5 DPS

2 3C fixed pulseG5 overcharged = 61.6 DPS

2 3C fixed BeamG5 overcharged = 87 DPS

2 3C fixed cannonG5 overcharged = 79.4 DPS

2 3C fixed palsmaG5 overcharged = 82 DPS

2 3C fixed cannonG5 overcharged = 79.4 DPS
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2 3C fixed railsG5 short range = 173 DPS

as you can see most of the weapons damage range from 60-80 dps and the frags outclass them by a HUGE margin and the closest one that comes half way it is the rails. I ask Frontier to take a good look at this weapon in bring it down to reasonable levels.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
And how do I reliably gank noobs then? :D

To be serious, the numbers shown for frag cannons are somewhat misleading. Somewhere around here is an analysis about sustained damage (by truesilver? morbad? idk)
which shows that it is pretty much balanced, especially with the decreased range, spread and ammunition capacity of frags. So no, they don't need a nerf.
 

Hellfire85

Hellfire85
Frags as well as Pacifiers already have a big disadvantage compared to most weapons.
That is the range.
The numbers you show are the damage output in an ideal situation and per second, that means, while you can almost fire a triple burst in one second, all of the fragments have to hit target, which is very hard to achieve unless your target flies a big ship and stands still.
The best counter to frags is long and medium range weapons like lasers, MCs, rails etc...
So no, no need to either rebalance or remove them.

Also, comparing them with PAs is pointless since PAs ignore resistances, which frags do not since they are kinetic.

If one of the big 3 gets rekt in 5-7 Pacifier shots, I gotta say that those ships were almost stock as it takes all my ammo to get thru the shields of a prismatic shielded, fully engineered, defense stacked Corvette or Cutter.

Check your sources, claims and numbers before trying to get people to follow your cause.
 

elkiller

E
Bigmaec said:
And how do I reliably gank noobs then? :D

To be serious, the numbers shown for frag cannons are somewhat misleading. Somewhere around here is an analysis about sustained damage (by truesilver? morbad? idk)
which shows that it is pretty much balanced, especially with the decreased range, spread and ammunition capacity of frags. So no, they don't need a nerf.
Click to expand...

Well i thank you because i have to re-run the number and i forgot to put the overcharge G5 grade frags, the damage is 847 DPS btw so i dont know what you mean by "is pretty much balanced".


overcahrged
https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...v4Ph2EMAAAA=.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

double shot
https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...8mrnQwAAAA==.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

and the distance doesn't matter if i get to attack first at close range then you're toasted. point is that the Frags are super OP and you have evidence that proves the opposite please provide it. I would like to collect as much info as i can about frags.
 

Ian Skippy

Ian Skippy
Hellfire85 said:
Frags as well as Pacifiers already have a big disadvantage compared to most weapons.
That is the range.
The numbers you show are the damage output in an ideal situation and per second, that means, while you can almost fire a triple burst in one second, all of the fragments have to hit target, which is very hard to achieve unless your target flies a big ship and stands still.
The best counter to frags is long and medium range weapons like lasers, MCs, rails etc...
So no, no need to either rebalance or remove them.

Also, comparing them with PAs is pointless since PAs ignore resistances, which frags do not since they are kinetic.

If one of the big 3 gets rekt in 5-7 Pacifier shots, I gotta say that those ships were almost stock as it takes all my ammo to get thru the shields of a prismatic shielded, fully engineered, defense stacked Corvette or Cutter.

Check your sources, claims and numbers before trying to get people to follow your cause.
Click to expand...

Wait? You are telling me one variable without context isn't enough to accurate describe the relationship between various weapons and their effectiveness? Get outta here! :p
 

elkiller

E
Hellfire85 said:
Frags as well as Pacifiers already have a big disadvantage compared to most weapons.
That is the range.
The numbers you show are the damage output in an ideal situation and per second, that means, while you can almost fire a triple burst in one second, all of the fragments have to hit target, which is very hard to achieve unless your target flies a big ship and stands still.
The best counter to frags is long and medium range weapons like lasers, MCs, rails etc...
So no, no need to either rebalance or remove them.

Also, comparing them with PAs is pointless since PAs ignore resistances, which frags do not since they are kinetic.

If one of the big 3 gets rekt in 5-7 Pacifier shots, I gotta say that those ships were almost stock as it takes all my ammo to get thru the shields of a prismatic shielded, fully engineered, defense stacked Corvette or Cutter.

Check your sources, claims and numbers before trying to get people to follow your cause.
Click to expand...

ok so what are you going to do when a vulture gets behind your anaconda and start shooting? you know that a vulture can stick to a big target like glue. this weapons is a "one shot" i have seen A rated engineered corvettes hull melted by clippers and vultures in less than 3 shots and that take less than 15 seconds.

and here are the sources that proof the DPS is OP, now i encourage you to counter this with proof instead of ruing your mouth with dismissive claims.


https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...v4Ph2EMAAAA=.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...8mrnQwAAAA==.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==
 

Ashnak

Ashnak
[video]https://i.imgur.com/mbtUqEa.mp4[/video]

Or, like already said:
first: when you're talking about weapons with a long reload time against weapons with zero reload, you'll have to check sustained DPS
second: effective range of frags is about 500 meters against large ships if you can hit them from above or below, and no engineering will change that

If you want to bring a 'vette or Cutter into combat against an agile ship, you'll need to have good defenses (i.e. shields) and turrets. Oh, and learn to fly, of course.
 

Hellfire85

Hellfire85
elkiller said:
ok so what are you going to do when a vulture gets behind your anaconda and start shooting? you know that a vulture can stick to a big target like glue. this weapons is a "one shot" i have seen A rated engineered corvettes hull melted by clippers and vultures in less than 3 shots and that take less than 15 seconds.

and here are the sources that proof the DPS is OP, now i encourage you to counter this with proof instead of ruing your mouth with dismissive claims.


https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...v4Ph2EMAAAA=.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...8mrnQwAAAA==.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==
Click to expand...

First thing, I don't fly the conda, I'm more likely to be the Vulture sitting on your tail and fragging the hell out of you :D
And then, I want to see proof that the frags can do such amount of damage. Show me a video supporting your claims and I might agree, but the thing is, I am using frags on a daily basis and fully engineered condas or vettes or Cutters don't melt in a few shots as you say.
 

Misty_Dark

Misty_Dark
elkiller said:
Well i thank you because i have to re-run the number and i forgot to put the overcharge G5 grade frags, the damage is 847 DPS btw so i dont know what you mean by "is pretty much balanced".


overcahrged
https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...v4Ph2EMAAAA=.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

double shot
https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...8mrnQwAAAA==.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

and the distance doesn't matter if i get to attack first at close range then you're toasted. point is that the Frags are super OP and you have evidence that proves the opposite please provide it. I would like to collect as much info as i can about frags.
Click to expand...

One question, have you tried this yourself?
I have tested a Frag-fitted Krait (both with variants), G5 engineered with double shoot, and yes, the potential power is awesome, but getting all the projectiles to land on the target is very hard, and if you believe that you will do that by flying very close behind a target and land all the projectiles, then I suggest you try it before you make assumptions, I wrecked Type 9 in a 2 salvos at point blank range, and I would still miss with some projectiles.

So I have a hard time believing that a Vulture will be able to do all that damage you say, as I cannot do that in my Krait, I have 1 Large and 2 Mediums more on the Krait
But I will later test my Pacifiers on my Vulture.


So I have both my Combat Corvete and several potential Frag-ships, A Krait and a Vulture, and other ships I put these on... so where should we meet?




[edit]
To Clarify, my Type 9 shootings was STATIONARY, ie NOT moving ships, and I could line up to shoot them at their biggest profile, ie hitting the the top or bottom. When increasing range, or trying to hit them before they had stopped, upped the number of shoots needed to take them out.
 
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Ashnak

Ashnak
elkiller said:
...
and here are the sources that proof the DPS is OP, now i encourage you to counter this with proof instead of ruing your mouth with dismissive claims.
Click to expand...

That's not proof of OP, but since you asked:

This would be what I would consider a minimal A-rated 'vette, at least for the hull - standard reactiv+thermal bulkheads plus two arbitrary engineered class 5 hiull reinforcements. Pitch it against the Vulture you set up, and you'll see that it would take 50 seconds (not 15, as your claim) to break that 'vettes hull. 50 seconds dutring which all of the Vulture's shot would have to land on the hull.
 

CMDR Corlas

CMDR Corlas
elkiller said:
ok so what are you going to do when a vulture gets behind your anaconda and start shooting? you know that a vulture can stick to a big target like glue. this weapons is a "one shot" i have seen A rated engineered corvettes hull melted by clippers and vultures in less than 3 shots and that take less than 15 seconds.

and here are the sources that proof the DPS is OP, now i encourage you to counter this with proof instead of ruing your mouth with dismissive claims.


https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...v4Ph2EMAAAA=.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

https://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture?...8mrnQwAAAA==.EweloBhAOGQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==
Click to expand...

You're looking at the wrong number there.

What you want to do is click on the "Offense" subsection and look at those numbers. That tries to approximate sustained DPS (in ideal circumstances). And swap the opposing ship to something like a stock Anaconda at least. Frags are high-DPS weapons, yeah, given the right circumstances. They're not god-weapons though.
 

elkiller

E
Misty_Dark said:
One question, have you tried this yourself?
I have tested a Frag-fitted Krait (both with variants), G5 engineered with double shoot, and yes, the potential power is awesome, but getting all the projectiles to land on the target is very hard, and if you believe that you will do that by flying very close behind a target and land all the projectiles, then I suggest you try it before you make assumptions, I wrecked Type 9 in a 2 salvos at point blank range, and I would still miss with some projectiles.

So I have a hard time believing that a Vulture will be able to do all that damage you say, as I cannot do that in my Krait, I have 1 Large and 2 Mediums more on the Krait
But I will later test my Pacifiers on my Vulture.


So I have both my Combat Corvete and several potential Frag-ships, A Krait and a Vulture, and other ships I put these on... so where should we meet?




[edit]
To Clarify, my Type 9 shootings was STATIONARY, ie NOT moving ships, and I could line up to shoot them at their biggest profile, ie hitting the the top or bottom. When increasing range, or trying to hit them before they had stopped, upped the number of shoots needed to take them out.
Click to expand...

i have not done the testing but my buddie fitted with corvette G3 was killed in front of me in less than 20 second by someone using a clipper with frags. basically the clipper got behind him shot his corvette and drop the shields almost instantly, i imagine that the clipper had engineered frags. by the time i notice and was able to turn my ship to my buddy his hull was halfway thru. and once the clipper PK him it just bailed. and i this is usually how frags are used by gankers, they get close to you and out of sights to get real close. basically when i play in open and see a cmdr with frags i kill him asap by ramming and all weapons free.

here is a video of what i usually get to witness and experience against players with frags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDDCHuHHaI8
 
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Hellfire85

Hellfire85
elkiller said:
i have not done the testing but my buddie fitted with corvette G3 was killed in front of me in less than 20 second by someone using a clipper with frags. basically the clipper got behind him shot his corvette and drop the shields almost instantly, i imagine that the clipper had engineered frags. by the time i notice and was able to turn my ship to my buddy his hull was halfway thru. and once the clipper PK him it just bailed. and i this is usually how frags are used by gankers, they get close to you and out of sights to get real close. basically when i play in open and see a cmdr with frags i kill him asap by ramming and all weapons free.

here is a video of what i usually get to witness and experience against players with frags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDDCHuHHaI8
Click to expand...

so your "evidence" is a fully engineered Vulture with probably fully engineered frags, certainly OC G5 with oversized special, killing an NPC Dropship, Expert level in a high RES? Really?

Do you realize that the NPCs are not engineered at all in Extraction Sites?

And about your buddy, it would be interesting to see what Corvette build he was flying. A bi-weave Vette is cannon fodder, even for a single Pacifier Vulture.
G3 on what? shields? A rated modules? How much hull points? how many shield Mj? Are you sure the Clipper was alone? And even if he was, your pals ship must have been fitted for PvE, so no wonder a dedicated PvP frag build can chew thru his hull in a matter of seconds.

Everyone has the tools to counter this sort of thing, no need to remove anything.

Do the test yourself before claiming stuff please.
 
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