Pilots Federation under load of huge insurance costs ...

[YinYin]

... due to a select few Pilots Federation members?

It has come to my attention that the Pilots Federation is sometimes burdened with large insurance costs due to some of its very own members deliberately destroying Pilots Federation ships (their own or others).

I would like to propose two things to restrict this behaviour:

• Should a member of the Pilots Federation destroy another clean (no bounties, not an enemy) Pilots Federation ship - his own insurance will become void for a week.
• Should a member of the Pilots Federation have his own ship destroyed and loosing a bounty that is higher than the insurance he pays - his next insurance will become void for a week.

The insurance will read "void" instead of a value and the transaction tab will show an entry "void insurance" showing the time remaining until insurance will be granted again.
The time penalty stacks with every destroyed ship.
Should a pilot lose his ship with voided insurance, there will be no outfitted backup ship waiting for him. A stock sidewinder or one of his stored ships is the only option.

These precautions should not directly impact most members of the Pilots Federation, however it may cut down heavily on unwarranted insurance costs.

//

The week and time stacking is rather arbitrary and may be tweaked to any other time related model.
Same with the bounty bigger than paid insurance.

I have lightly searched the forum for this suggestion and have found it once, but not as a single thread to discuss it:

Or make the insurance void if progressive attacks on players v players. If players are going to be killers, then at least its got risks worth thinking about. cheers....

I think the whole thing would be a great incentive to automatically double down on unreasonable behaviour (without spending time to check in on any support ticket related to such incidents and manually putting players into their shadow banned galaxy - although that is cool too, it doesn't really seem all that practical). Also it would help making pirates of the Pilots Federation more decent folk that will care more about getting your cargo than making you go boom.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

As a crime deterrent, I'm not totally opposed. My issue with this suggestion is two fold:
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1) I don't want to my insurance voided just because I take an assassination mission. As I understand, anything with a combat rank is licensed under the pilot's federation, as these ranks are bestowed by the organization. I do not agree with making special rules for player pirate federation members and not NPC pilot federation members.
.
2) Completely void for a week is a little harsh. I don't want to get sent back into a sidewinder because I sneezed on a hauler while flying my orca into the airlock sideways. I suggest simply reducing the insurance coverage, something like 5%+1% per compounding murder thereafter.

 

[YinYin]

Oh, I was under the impression that only players belong to the Pilots Federation (you could say that players are 'full' members with insurance - and otherwise any existing pilot/npc gets ranked). Either way this would be limited to player ships and could also tie in with the hollow scanner targets and a transponder toggle (being able to identify as and seeing only filled targets or identify as and see other hollow targets - that way you would also have a reason to show your player status, because getting destroyed as a player poses the void penalty).

The time could probably be toned down - if you get a well presented warning upon shooting at a player ship the full void for destruction is important though - as it gives more incentive for defending/protecting players, because they can actually prevent the perpetrators from respawning with the same load out in a nearby location.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Oh, I was under the impression that only players belong to the Pilots Federation (you could say that players are 'full' members with insurance - and otherwise any existing pilot/npc gets ranked). Either way this would be limited to player ships and could also tie in with the hollow scanner targets and a transponder toggle (being able to identify as and seeing only filled targets or identify as and see other hollow targets - that way you would also have a reason to show your player status, because getting destroyed as a player poses the void penalty).

The time could probably be toned down - if you get a well presented warning upon shooting at a player ship the full void for destruction is important though - as it gives more incentive for defending/protecting players, because they can actually prevent the perpetrators from respawning with the same load out in a nearby location.

Neither of these address the issues. An orca (one of if not the most powerful rammer in the game) speeding accident should not result in being sent back to a sidewinder. I love consequence, but this is simply too severe.

 

[YinYin]

Neither of these address the issues. An orca (one of if not the most powerful rammer in the game) speeding accident should not result in being sent back to a sidewinder. I love consequence, but this is simply too severe.

I would say accidents within the no fire zone of stations already are an annoyance that could easily get special treatment. Even though I would say after being fined for that once the orca should better not be speeding again any time soon. Else this'd be a horrible loophole (yay lets go ram kill some newbie sidewinders!).

edit: also the whole point is that it's never instant - you will know you have no more insurance and if you either survive/go into cheaper ships(storing backup ships) or step away from the game for that period of time you will not be sent back to a sidewinder at all. That gives the victims time to breath or deal with an easier opponent.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I would say accidents within the no fire zone of stations already are an annoyance that could easily get special treatment. Even though I would say after being fined for that once the orca should better not be speeding again any time soon. Else this'd be a horrible loophole (yay lets go ram kill some newbie sidewinders!).

edit: also the whole point is that it's never instant - you will know you have no more insurance and if you either survive/go into cheaper ships or step away from the game for that period of time you will not be sent back to a sidewinder at all. That gives the victims time to breath or deal with an easier opponent.

Accidents can happen outside the no fire zone and count as murder too. I find your suggestion to be short sighted. Look at this objectively. You are forcing someone to pay insurance. As a penalty, your ship is forfeit on death for the next week. I will run a shieldless sidewinder through your firing solution then ram into your ship at full speed, destroying myself. I will then come back in an FDL and claim your bounty, and you will lose your ship. How does this make you feel?

I am the first person who will say that consequence needs to be pushed harder than it is currently. But seriously - this is a little much.

 

[YinYin]

Accidents can happen outside the no fire zone and count as murder too. I find your suggestion to be short sighted. Look at this objectively. You are forcing someone to pay insurance. As a penalty, your ship is forfeit on death for the next week. I will run a shieldless sidewinder through your firing solution then ram into your ship at full speed, destroying myself. I will then come back in an FDL and claim your bounty, and you will lose your ship. How does this make you feel?

That's a different problem that would need to be addressed at the same time this is put in place. A kamikaze sidey should never put a wanted status on the hit target. That could be dealt with in a similar manner to proper speeding rules (the faster ship is at fault). Now if you are suggesting to slowly nudge into me as I go faster than you, touché, I might deserve that exploit for not managing to dodge your slow sidey.

Also the week can easily be toned town to a day or even just hours - it would still serve the immediate function of increasing the risk for anyone recklessly blasting players in a short amount of time (and if I got into that position by accident I'd happily take a short break).

 

[Psycho Romeo]

That's a different problem that would need to be addressed at the same time this is put in place. A kamikaze sidey should never put a wanted status on the hit target. That could be dealt with in a similar manner to proper speeding rules (the faster ship is at fault). Now if you are suggesting to slowly nudge into me as I go faster than you, touché, I might deserve that exploit for not managing to dodge your slow sidey.

Also the week can easily be toned town to a day or even just hours - it would still serve the immediate function of increasing the risk for anyone recklessly blasting players in a short amount of time (and if I got into that position by accident I'd happily take a short break).

I'm shocked you're being so adamant about this. A simply battle anaconda can cost almost a billion credits, and there is no single action in the game that could possibly warrant losing that much.

Murder is part of the universe, and this needs to be accepted. As soon as you hit open, you agree to become my content. Yes, me depriving you of your enjoyment should come at a cost to mine. But a billion credits for something that could be the result of an unfortunate accident? That's just wrong.

Also, FD has already stated that it's virtually impossible to find who is at fault in a collision with the metrics they have available. This is not something you can hinge your suggestion on.

 

[YinYin]

Excuse me, I like my idea
And there already are actions in game that can make you lose that much - I don't see your point.
You can avoid this (and that's the whole point of the idea) the same way you can avoid completely losing a ship through other means (flying without covering the rebuy cost).

 

[Psycho Romeo]

You can avoid this (and that's the whole point of the idea) the same way you can avoid completely losing a ship through other means (flying without covering the rebuy cost).

Flying without insurance because you're stupid is not equivalent to flying without insurance because you sneezed on a hauler.
The former deserves it. The latter may not.

 

[YinYin]

Flying with something expensive after sneezing on a hauler (I need to gain some experience with such incidents) may be just as stupid as flying without insurance.
It is essentially the same, except one can be waited out (time; I see that needs to be made short and/or sneezing events need to be reduced) while the other has to be worked out (credits).

edit: btw thanks for discussing this with me; can't drop you enough rep for it.

double edit: After reading this, maybe the whole void insurance can be dropped for limiting the 'solution' to preventing a close respawn after successive clean player wrecking:

The only thing I would change is spawning back at the same station you last visited. Instead I would have everyone spawn at the starter station/s. Don't want to be there? Fine, don't get killed. Griefers will get killed and no one wants to spend that much time hopping systems to grief the same people again.

I don't know how to sensibly tie that into the game lore yet though (Pilots Federation saving themselves some transportation cost :S).

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Flying with something expensive after sneezing on a hauler (I need to gain some experience with such incidents) may be just as stupid as flying without insurance.
It is essentially the same, except one can be waited out (time; I see that needs to be made short and/or sneezing events need to be reduced) while the other has to be worked out (credits).

edit: btw thanks for discussing this with me; can't drop you enough rep for it.

The one who sneezed on a hauler is going to have a very butt clenching ride back to a friendly station to change ships.

Let's take a different approach.

What is murder worth? The loss of assets for the defender? The loss of assets compared to total assets for the defender?
How does a bounty plus a week of no insurance relate to this?

For a trader, this is a week of 'well, I'm not trucking anymore'.
For a combat pilot, this is a week of 'hah, not bringing an eagle to a CZ'.
For a explorer, this is a week of them continuing to jump honk jump honk, and they are relatively unaffected.

Crime is part of the galaxy. Pirates murder traders who do not comply. Others do it for fun. It's a significant aspect of the game and I feel that the potential to get shoved into a sidewinder is a steep cost for otherwise perfectly acceptable game mechanics.

 

[YinYin]

What is murder worth? The loss of assets for the defender? The loss of assets compared to total assets for the defender?
How does a bounty plus a week of no insurance relate to this?

It relates to stopping mass murder around a station due to respawning with the very same loadout frequently. And, well, a member of the Pilots Federation deliberately causing a pile of insurance costs - which shouldn't be in the interest of the Pilots Federation.

Also with your input I gotta agree a week is far far too long and not in proportion to the problem this is supposed to fix. Something between 10 minutes and a few hours would be better.

Where/how do you get to sneeze on haulers far away from a station (as a trader/fighter/explorer)?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Make it simple

- Destroying a player ship by ramming within 15 Km of a station (highest speed ship is the perpetrator) will put the insurance cost on the attacker.

- Cargo lost by ramming within 15km of a station is paid by the attacker

- Smuggled cargo is NOT paid by the attacker

 

[Cheese Helmet]

As a crime deterrent, I'm not totally opposed. My issue with this suggestion is two fold:
.
1) I don't want to my insurance voided just because I take an assassination mission. As I understand, anything with a combat rank is licensed under the pilot's federation, as these ranks are bestowed by the organization. I do not agree with making special rules for player pirate federation members and not NPC pilot federation members.
.
2) Completely void for a week is a little harsh. I don't want to get sent back into a sidewinder because I sneezed on a hauler while flying my orca into the airlock sideways. I suggest simply reducing the insurance coverage, something like 5%+1% per compounding murder thereafter.

I like #2

 

[Psycho Romeo]

It relates to stopping mass murder around a station due to respawning with the very same loadout frequently. And, well, a member of the Pilots Federation deliberately causing a pile of insurance costs - which shouldn't be in the interest of the Pilots Federation.

2) Completely void for a week is a little harsh. I don't want to get sent back into a sidewinder because I sneezed on a hauler while flying my orca into the airlock sideways. I suggest simply reducing the insurance coverage, something like 5%+1% per compounding murder thereafter.

Does a compounding drop in insurance not address the issue?

 

[YinYin]

Do you mean making the rebuy cheaper for the victims or more expensive for the perpetrators?

I guess both could slightly address the issue, but considering the victims are likely low on funds to begin with and the perpetrators may have a huge credit sponge it may not make too much of a difference.

In fact the credits aren't really the issue to me at all. More so the instant respawn with the very same load out to continue the killing spree. I've seen suggestions of 'deportation' in other threads - where a wanted/enemy/hostile commander is not allowed to respawn in that system. But that raises the question: how far away/in what system will a commander respawn in that case (the closest system he is clean in?).