Piracy and Risk

[Mazuo]

Tonight I was blown up after being interdicted trying to deliver metals to the Antal CG. Distressing, but as the materials were mined I only really lost my time and a modest replacement fee for a Type 6. However, what this event reinforced for me though is how currently only the trader assumes any significant risk.

There is skill involved in finding a target and forcing open its cargo bay to steal a few tons of valuable goods before player bounty hunters and NPC authorities swoop in to deal with the criminals. Unfortunately, that isn't ever what happens in-game. Instead pirates in vastly superior ships and wings prey on defenseless cargo carriers and are never in any danger. Pirates are given all the time they want to deal with targets and if they get frustrated with a slow response and blow up the ship, the consequences to themselves appear to be trivial. If trading should be dangerous, which I agree it should be, should not armed combat, theft and attempted murder be possibly even more dangerous for those who participate in such actions?

A pirate currently waits in a system, gets what they want from a passing cargo ship or destroys it and continues about their business.

Should actual theft be somehow incentivized to possibly deter murder? Should there not be systems in place for players and NPCs to actively hunt down pirates across systems putting some fear into them instead of always reserved for traders?

 

[stumagoo]

no no no no...... you have it all wrong, to start with traders make too much money, there is no risk in it for them as it is only a game, their time recovering lost earnings is not worth anything, and it is the pirates right to have traders as an easy target........


but that said I know exactly what you are saying, ts why I am a carebear and play in mobius when I get on, which I am much less inclined to lately. I really do feel for you but what you are commenting on is exactly the opposite of many other threads which complain that traders make to much more $$ by grinding their time.

 

[Derath]

Sarcasm aside traders do have it easiest, this is why despite the apparent "highest" risks they continue to make the most money though i suppose their risk could be extremely low, slightly above, almost never low.

There is no good way to deal with this, ideally you need a ship that has a strategy versus psychos, and you can comply or use the same strat versus pirates.

 

[Scudmungus]

Problem being, no way of disguising ship. No way of laying traps.

Pirate scan, pirate see exactly wat him guh fi guh get..

An mek Self Destruct do MASSIVE area damage!

 

[Mazuo]

I'm fine with doing things that would dramatically increase the payouts that smart pirates receive. I'm mainly trying to address the problem though that dumb pirates are free and clear to wanton murder without ever worrying that any justice might be coming their way. Trader/miner loses quite a bit of time and possibly a very large amount of money and killer goes right back to what he was doing.

The best way I see it working out is systems and ship equipment in place to reward those that get the goods and get out and to still keep stupid thuggery possible, but at the risk of having to always look over your shoulder for the law.

 

[I and I Redeye]

As a wanted pirate you always have to look over your shoulder.
With a hefty price tag, there is always the danger of bumping into someone who can collect it.
Plus the security has ramped up in some systems, you have report crimes, in some systems the security turns up faster now.

So it would be better for pirates to travel in wings rather than a lone pirate, even more so now cos everyone asked for npc security, so ofc pirate will ramp up his own strategy or force.

Plus if someone wants to kill you then no security is ever gonna arrive in time to stop it unless you can survive long enough, in which case you might as well FSD out of there if your not interested in a fight.

You cannot get npc's to do anything for you.

The only way to reduce piracy is to nerf their profits.
Like limit their piracy to 20t.

Some turn to murder as protest.

 

[Glenn Ross]

But having been a victim myself, it seems like the pirates are not being that smart about it.
I got interdicted and scanned with 7T of Bast Gin [profit about 15K/T] and the pirate demanded 5T of it - which, with my fuel and W&T costs meant I would just about break even on the trip, maybe make a couple of K. It didn't take long for his Python to take out my Asp, but I did get in a few good hits and take down some of his shields [which I was content with for a 0% Harmless rated pilot].
Yes, I forced him to destroy me. I took the insurance hit as the cost of increasing his bounty, making him more appealing to BHs.
Had he asked for 2T, I'd have dropped it, wished him well, and we both would have gone about our business. But he was greedy, and ended up with nothing.
Pirates asking for too much make traders nervous. Tell me to drop most of my cargo, almost all of my profit, and I will think that you just want the cargo safe and am going to kill me anyway - so why should I drop anything?
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When I was interdicted again on the very next trip, I ran. Escaped to SC only to be hunted down again by the very same player. Also not very sporting, and again resulted in me getting destroyed.
Not very nice, and not that intelligent of the pirates. If someone escapes to SC, make sure you don't go after the same guy again. It feels like griefing, and all it actually did was bump up your bounty again. When I re-started, I went into solo to avoid that sort of behavior, so you are reducing your 'food source'. Keep that behaviour up and all the player traders will migrate to solo, so are the pirates willing to play in a game where they will be forece into solo themselves? (If there are no tradres in open, all player pirates will have for company is other pirates and BHs. At that point, the pirates might as well play solo to get away from the BHs.
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We could end up in a game where open is populated by explorers out on the rim not bothered by anyone, and BHs hunting NPCs. Both groups might as well be in solo, but at least can get some company if they need it. It's just basic survival of the fittest guys. No species can grow past their available food source. Traders have an unlimited food source because comoddities respawn, so it doesn't make any odds at all to us whether playing in open or solo. If the pirates among us want players to interact with, don't take the [Expletive Deleted] and demand way more of our cargo than is reasonable, or go after the same mark twice. Keep it reasonable and you will not only get more cargo to sell, your bounty will go up slower and you will get less attention from the good guys, so your risk is lower.
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You know it makes sense.

 

[Mazuo]

I guess I'm left wondering, pirates feel free to respond, do you ever actually care that you have a bounty on you? I mean is it ever more than a minor annoyance? Are you ever actually fearful that someone is going to find you and collect?

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Pirates have it tougher in the sense that they aren't able to make obscene amounts of money. Traders risk more on death, but they also make more on a successful run.

You're also assuming that pirates don't get bothered between interdictions of traders. When I'm out pirating I spend a lot of time dealing with bounty hunters, and cops. Even if they can't pull me over, they still constantly interdict me. I can't count the number of times I lost my target due to system authority interdicting me at the last second.

An mek Self Destruct do MASSIVE area damage!

Yea, that won't be exploited by griefers or anything.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I'm left wondering, pirates feel free to respond, do you ever actually care that you have a bounty on you? I mean is it ever more than a minor annoyance? Are you ever actually fearful that someone is going to find you and collect?

Not really, bounties aren't a big deal. I even enjoy it when bounty hunters come calling.

 

[Mkstnbrnr]

I have a thread on this too called Murder. I don't want pirating to be taken away but the fines of murder should be significantly increased! If you are a pirate killing someone for their cargo also destroys the cargo so I don't see the point. But there is nothing that henders there irate decision to blow up everything in there disgust. A proper pirate would take your cargo using limpets and let the clientele go so as to rob them again, rather than killing all potential future profits. At least that's what logic tells me.

 

[Scudmungus]

Yea, that won't be exploited by griefers or anything.

Lock it out in No Fire Zone. Make it count down visible when targeted. Explosion proportional to ship mass.

Gud job!

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Lock it out in No Fire Zone. Make it count down visible when targeted. Explosion proportional to ship mass.

Gud job!

Not bad, It would still be used to carpet bomb res and nav beacons, at least the people using it will pay a lot of insurance per use. It's also a strong weapon for traders, but throw in it doesn't damage dropped cargo and I'll be happy with it.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

Pirates get plenty of grief.

Ive lost count of the times i have been wake jacked by goody two shoes bounty hunters or interdicted by wing gankers looking for a brawl or laying claim to turf.

Get a bounty on your head and buzz about a CG. It will keep you busy.

 

[DarkWalker]

Not bad, It would still be used to carpet bomb res and nav beacons, at least the people using it will pay a lot of insurance per use. It's also a strong weapon for traders, but throw in it doesn't damage dropped cargo and I'll be happy with it.

The main use of a self-destruction option for a trader is exactly to deny the pirate. If cargo survives to be scooped by the pirate then self-destruction is useless for the trader.

It's the same idea behind some of the devices used to prevent armored car theft in the real world, the ones that destroy all the money if the safe containing it is opened before arriving at the destination or is tampered in any way. Remove the potential rewards for robbery and, as soon as the robbers realize what is happening, robberies sharply drop off.

And, for reference, I would rather destroy my ship and lose everything than let a player pirate steal even one cannister of biowaste.

 

[Ceo]

The main use of a self-destruction option for a trader is exactly to deny the pirate. If cargo survives to be scooped by the pirate then self-destruction is useless for the trader.

It's the same idea behind some of the devices used to prevent armored car theft in the real world, the ones that destroy all the money if the safe containing it is opened before arriving at the destination or is tampered in any way. Remove the potential rewards for robbery and, as soon as the robbers realize what is happening, robberies sharply drop off.

And, for reference, I would rather destroy my ship and lose everything than let a player pirate steal even one cannister of biowaste.

To be honest, speaking as someone who isn't a pirate, but plays in open. This is the attitude that causes problems for everyone else. The few pirates that stick to the job (and it's hard, and not overly profitable in the long run) get sick of people not dropping anything because they would rather lose XXX millions as opposed to XXX thousand in cargo. It's a silly attitude which detracts heavily from the spirit of the game. Something a hardcore mode would fix in all cases.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

The main use of a self-destruction option for a trader is exactly to deny the pirate. If cargo survives to be scooped by the pirate then self-destruction is useless for the trader.

And it's precisely that reason it shouldn't be in the game. If a pirate liberates you of your cargo, what little can be taken with limpets and shooting the hatch, you shouldn't be able to go nuclear to prevent him from getting it. All it would do is encourage traders to self destruct out of spite.

 

[Derath]

I think self destruct was put in to handle running out of fuel actually (and of course thrusters before reboot was put in)

 

[11B]

You mentioned that a pirate doesn't have as much to lose, that's simply not the case. We're not using expensive or overpowered ships to hunt haulers, we're using them to defend ourselves against the cmdrs who will ultimately be coming for our bounties. If you're not ready to fight a FDL or Python cmdr pvp, then you should probably not be pirating alone as there's the risk that you'll be jumped by a player wing. Best case scenario, I get away with just enough canisters to cover my costs of our interaction. This is why we play open, the interactions that we have with other players are what make the game interesting. We don't make money, our rebuys are at least twice the cost of a traders, and everyone wants to kill us including the traders if they could. How is it that traders have it hard now? Last night I met a cmdr in a type 7 who saw me lurking around the CG, he decided to say hello instead of trying to log, low wake, or high wake out as other countless cmdrs had done earlier. We exchange greetings in SC and joked about how I wouldn't be pirating him since he was too much of a nice guy. I don't do it to grief, I believe the interactions we have expand the depth of the game since it's pretty shallow in solo without player interaction. Now that you know I was in the system last night let's talk about why I killed you. After interdicting you, I requested you to drop some cargo and stated I prefer not to kill traders. Unfortunately, while I was waiting for a response you decided to use the time to let your FSD cool down so you could run. At no time did you attempt to interact, just boost away. Í allowed myself to get upset that you ran without saying a word, I actually feel bad for destroying your ship. I'm sure you don't believe me, I actually had a conversation with my wingman about how I felt bad about it. There's no feels when trading from station to station or BHing in the RES as there's no hard choices to make when interacting with NPCs. I'm not going to join the ranks of the whiners on these forums that post threads sobbing for buffs and nerfs to any occupation, but I will say that when players choose to be silent and salty they are the ones that are ruining the ED experience for everyone else including themselves. In the future you might try to be more like the cmdr in the Type 7 and then you just might have more fun, or not that's your own choice. No hard feelings cmdr, I'm glad you're not bothered by the rebuy as that wasn't my intention.

 

[Glenn Ross]

To be honest, speaking as someone who isn't a pirate, but plays in open. This is the attitude that causes problems for everyone else. The few pirates that stick to the job (and it's hard, and not overly profitable in the long run) get sick of people not dropping anything because they would rather lose XXX millions as opposed to XXX thousand in cargo. It's a silly attitude which detracts heavily from the spirit of the game. Something a hardcore mode would fix in all cases.

So on any particular run, I should drop my cargo and make a loss, just because?
And what about the silly attitude of the (seeming) majority of pirates? Interdict target, "Drop cargo or die, hur, hur hur!". And don't expect to take the majority of my cargo. If a pirate demands so much of my cargo that they are taking more than half my profit FOR THAT TRIP, then they need their head examined if they think I'm going to roll over and comply. At that point, I am not playing the game for my benefit, I'm playing for the pirate's benefit [and that ain't gonna happen! I play for MY benefit.] If a pirate is smart about it, they will get something. If they are being a [bleep], expect to have to either let me go, or have their bounty increased.
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As to the idea of a "Hardman" type mode, yes it certainly would. I don't know what the effect on the others would be if every time you were destroyed you ended back in a stock sidey with 1000Cr and a new name, but 'bad' pirates would lose out very quickly. The more others they destroyed, the higher their bounty would get, the more interest BHs would take of them, and the more chance they would end up back in a stock sidey - and possibly prey to others of their ilk. Decent pirates would still win out, get more cargo drops from traders who don't want to end up back in a stock sidey, and the balance of how much cargo lost being considered acceptable would shift in the pirates favour. The same effect could be had from the pirate community.
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Let me suggest this.
We already have PVE groups, so why not a pirate 'clan'. Members of the clan are restricted in that they can't demand more than a set % of cargo, and are forbidden from just blasting away without coms. [attempts to evade interdiction negate this rule] Traders who willingly give cargo are released without further incident. BUT traders are allowed to report non-sanctioned pirates and clan member who break the rules to the clan, who will then remove the threat to their livelihood. The pirates become self-policing. Decent members make more, [Bleep]s are taken care of.

 

[Glenn Ross]

You mentioned that a pirate doesn't have as much to lose, that's simply not the case. We're not using expensive or overpowered ships to hunt haulers, we're using them to defend ourselves against the cmdrs who will ultimately be coming for our bounties. If you're not ready to fight a FDL or Python cmdr pvp, then you should probably not be pirating alone as there's the risk that you'll be jumped by a player wing. Best case scenario, I get away with just enough canisters to cover my costs of our interaction. This is why we play open, the interactions that we have with other players are what make the game interesting. We don't make money, our rebuys are at least twice the cost of a traders, and everyone wants to kill us including the traders if they could. How is it that traders have it hard now? Last night I met a cmdr in a type 7 who saw me lurking around the CG, he decided to say hello instead of trying to log, low wake, or high wake out as other countless cmdrs had done earlier. We exchange greetings in SC and joked about how I wouldn't be pirating him since he was too much of a nice guy. I don't do it to grief, I believe the interactions we have expand the depth of the game since it's pretty shallow in solo without player interaction. Now that you know I was in the system last night let's talk about why I killed you. After interdicting you, I requested you to drop some cargo and stated I prefer not to kill traders. Unfortunately, while I was waiting for a response you decided to use the time to let your FSD cool down so you could run. At no time did you attempt to interact, just boost away. Í allowed myself to get upset that you ran without saying a word, I actually feel bad for destroying your ship. I'm sure you don't believe me, I actually had a conversation with my wingman about how I felt bad about it. There's no feels when trading from station to station or BHing in the RES as there's no hard choices to make when interacting with NPCs. I'm not going to join the ranks of the whiners on these forums that post threads sobbing for buffs and nerfs to any occupation, but I will say that when players choose to be silent and salty they are the ones that are ruining the ED experience for everyone else including themselves. In the future you might try to be more like the cmdr in the Type 7 and then you just might have more fun, or not that's your own choice. No hard feelings cmdr, I'm glad you're not bothered by the rebuy as that wasn't my intention.

Not sure if you're talking to anyone in particular, but have some rep anyway. I know that not all players are pirates, and not all pirates are [Bleep]s. If we ever meet, direct me my name, and I'll submit for you, and drop some of whatever I'm carrying. At least you seem like one of the good guys.