Plasma Weapons and Rocket Launchers, what is supposed to be the balancing factor?

[TSINI]

Edit: Handheld weapons only

I'm only going to talk about Grade 1 weapons, because I don't have much experience with upgraded weapons.

So I like the idea of using lasers to strip the shields, and bullets to finish them off. The weapons look cool to me, especially the carbines.
But I feel like it takes too many hits to reduce the shields, and sometimes it's hard to switch and start hitting them with bullets again before their shields regenerate. the switching gives the enemy a break to run or hide.

The plasma weapons on the other hand seem to be 2 shot kills, 1 hit shields down and 1 hit dead, sometimes it takes a 3rd hit to finish them. It only takes one weapon slot, and you don't need to switch in between shots. They deplete shields and armour equally well.

So what is the supposed downside to using plasma?

Is it magazine size? - This is negated by infinite free ammo dumps.
Is it accuracy? - you have to be close for the shotgun, so not really, and the rifle is tricky to use on moving targets, but not impossible.
Is it cost? because with all guns we're talking small pennies here. (more than a spaceship money, but small money in game terms)

If you have a weapon that only removes shields, and doesn't touch health, it should remove shields better than a weapon that depletes both shields and armour equally well. And the same for a weapon that only damages health, it should perform better on health than a weapon designed to do both. At least that would be game balance as I understand it.

A weapon that does both well becomes the only choice... which is a silly way to go if you want players to "forge their own path".

Perhaps the multipurpose plasma weapons, at grade 1, should take 4 shots to kill, forcing a reload in there. It should only be this deadly at higher grades.

I have similar thoughts on the rocket launcher, in most games a powerful weapon like this would be limited by number of shots. But having free ammo dumps littering every settlement seems to break this limitation.
Perhaps the rockets should be consumables like grenades?

 

[Ydiss]

I'm only going to talk about Grade 1 weapons, because I don't have much experience with upgraded weapons.

So I like the idea of using lasers to strip the shields, and bullets to finish them off. The weapons look cool to me, especially the carbines.
But I feel like it takes too many hits to reduce the shields, and sometimes it's hard to switch and start hitting them with bullets again before their shields regenerate. the switching gives the enemy a break to run or hide.

The plasma weapons on the other hand seem to be 2 shot kills, 1 hit shields down and 1 hit dead, sometimes it takes a 3rd hit to finish them. It only takes one weapon slot, and you don't need to switch in between shots. They deplete shields and armour equally well.

So what is the supposed downside to using plasma?

Is it magazine size? - This is negated by infinite free ammo dumps.
Is it accuracy? - you have to be close for the shotgun, so not really, and the rifle is tricky to use on moving targets, but not impossible.
Is it cost? because with all guns we're talking small pennies here. (more than a spaceship money, but small money in game terms)

If you have a weapon that only removes shields, and doesn't touch health, it should remove shields better than a weapon that depletes both shields and armour equally well. And the same for a weapon that only damages health, it should perform better on health than a weapon designed to do both. At least that would be game balance as I understand it.

A weapon that does both well becomes the only choice... which is a silly way to go if you want players to "forge their own path".

Perhaps the multipurpose plasma weapons, at grade 1, should take 4 shots to kill, forcing a reload in there. It should only be this deadly at higher grades.

I have similar thoughts on the rocket launcher, in most games a powerful weapon like this would be limited by number of shots. But having free ammo dumps littering every settlement seems to break this limitation.
Perhaps the rockets should be consumables like grenades?

I think the downside for the shotgun is obvious, I won't bother talking about that. The Oppressor is slow to kill anyway. The tormentor is great, very powerful, but still very slow firing and the projectile speed matters. The P15 is an absolute beast vs suit (probably more powerful than the AR50, just less spammy). I've never tried the laser pistol, don't see the point of it for my style.

The Executioner is unforgiving if you miss (and it's much easier to miss with it than any other weapon). Even with extended magazine (something you can get for any weapon as well), a miss will mean no DPS for a second. Almost all the other weapons allow you to basically hold fire and hose your target and at higher grades the TTK is short. And, actually, I find the two automatic rifles more effective at range due to the projectiles being faster (the AR50 is still way too slow though).

It's similar for the L6 although it's quite forgiving if you don't hit directly although I do think the explosive damage it does to shields is excessively high. The limited ammo thing is an issue though, even if you can restock at several locations. Sure against AI it's not such a big deal because they stay put and let you two shot them but if someone wanted to use ther L6 versus me I'd just stay in the air... it'd be useless then. If AI did actually jump then that would balance that weapon rapidly. Equally, the best way to use the L6 is to be in the air yourself and I think I'd probably quite enjoy the target practice of shooting someone as they glided very slowly in a predictable arc. As it is, I didn't end up using it because you really do need to constantly run back to get more ammo and that's a bit too limiting for me. Might be more powerful with the extra ammo suit upgrade, but I don't use that anyway.

At G5, all weapons are viable and that's all that matters, really. None are stand-out OP. None are cookie-cutter choices.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Projectile speed.

 

[TSINI]

I think the downside for the shotgun is obvious, I won't bother talking about that. The Oppressor is slow to kill anyway.

The Executioner is unforgiving if you miss (and it's much easier to miss with it than any other weapon). Even with extended magazine (something you can get for any weapon as well), a miss will mean no DPS for a second. Almost all the other weapons allow you to basically hold fire and hose your target and at higher grades the TTK is short. And, actually, I find the two automatic rifles more effective at range due to the projectiles being faster (the AR50 is still way too slow though).

It's similar for the L6 although it's quite forgiving if you don't hit directly although I do think the explosive damage it does to shields is excessively high. The limited ammo thing is an issue though, even if you can restock at several locations. Sure against AI it's not such a big deal because they stay put and let you two shot them but if someone wanted to use ther L6 versus me I'd just stay in the air... it'd be useless then. If AI did actually jump then that would balance that weapon rapidly. As it is, I didn't end up using it because you really do need to constantly run back to get more ammo and that's a bit too limiting for me.

At G5, all weapons are viable and that's all that matters.

ok, so it's simply your own accuracy with the Executioner that is the limiting factor. I was doing fine with it for a while, but I decided I prefer the aesthetic of the laser carbine and kinetic rifle, it struck me how much longer it takes to kill each enemy with these two guns, but I suppose it does give me the ability to hit many enemy at once if they are grouped, which is good in combat zones.

fair enough, It just doesn't "feel" balanced to me yet. but perhaps it will as I progress through the upgrades.

 

[Northpin]

So what is the supposed downside to using plasma?

Projectile Speed mainly.
Then Low magazine size, low ammo capacity, high recoil.

All those makes rather hard to kill at a distance, making one face the danger up close.

Have you ever tried to down a Sentry Skimmer with a plasma weapon?

 

[Ydiss]

ok, so it's simply your own accuracy with the Executioner that is the limiting factor. I was doing fine with it for a while, but I decided I prefer the aesthetic of the laser carbine and kinetic rifle, it struck me how much longer it takes to kill each enemy with these two guns, but I suppose it does give me the ability to hit many enemy at once if they are grouped, which is good in combat zones.

fair enough, It just doesn't "feel" balanced to me yet. but perhaps it will as I progress through the upgrades.

There's room for improvement with how focused weapons are on thermal and kinetic, definitely. I certainly wouldn't ever want to go back to non plasma, because I don't like the switcheroo game play much. That said, you can imagine I switch weapons a lot, right? I have in total 20 shots in all of my arsenal before I run out of loaded ammo.

I have to switch a lot. The difference is, I don't need to switch to a specific weapon, all of them will do for me. I also have stowed reloading on all three weapons. Anyone who is using thermal/kinetic can do the same. It's a game changer and it immediately negates the issue of switching, so long as you don't do it too often.

 

[Koma Pahu]

I've never tried the laser pistol, don't see the point of it for my style.

Laser pistol is the quickest way to drop shields without plasma, noticeably so.

 

[Ydiss]

Laser pistol is noticeably the quickest way to drop shields without plasma.

There you go then, it has its niche

The overriding feeling I've always had when playing Odyssey FPS is that there aren't any major flaws with the balance. And I say this coming from decades (I can say decades now, it's literally been two) of playing FPS games where it's common for those games to be launched with the base weapons having one or two obvious "noob" options. Like with the original COD games (as in the original ones, not what you see now), the obvious OP weapons were the rocket launcher and the shotgun, which got blocked or modded on many servers (including the one I helped to run).

I initially thought the L6 was too easy to use but I'd definitely not switch to that now, it's just too restrictive; you almost have to be airbourne to use it 100% effectively, which would be very limited on higher G worlds. And that's OK. I think plenty will find it fun to use (it definitely was fun to use for a while).

 

[TSINI]

i've sort of resorted to old Halo tactics, laser carbine while i run towards them, then punch punch punch. Or at range, switch to kinetic.

The Maverick suit is too limited with the one slot, so I think I'm going to have to change to something else for restoration scavs. might try the shotgun later. the executioner is good for single kills, but once they start to swarm it can get difficult to deal with.

 

[Jace Harriman]

It makes a little more sense if you think of it in terms of how other games balance melee combat. The plasma weapons are basically your "heavy strike". They hit a lot harder, but they're slower, and they're not a guaranteed hit. A lot of games will let you take out opponents in a couple of hits with a sledgehammer, but you'll often get that lag time between hits while your character is thrown off balance by the swing, while they're winding up for the next hit, etc.

Laser/Kinetic meanwhile are your dual wield daggers. Each hit is dealing a whole lot less damage, but the hits are coming a lot faster, and there's less consequence for you if you miss. You don't need to spend as much time setting up to make your hit "count", you can be much more mobile when you're on the go, etc.

It might be nice if there was a little bit of a stunned/stagger mechanic in play. Some sort of a "the first few hits after your shields go down catch you by surprise, and your movement is slowed for a moment" sort of thing. Nothing that is going to leave you completely exposed and vulnerable, just enough to give the person shooting you half a second to switch weapons. Because as mentioned, right now, that moment it takes to swap weapons gives the AI too much wiggle room to get behind cover and recover, or to keep marching towards you completely unphased. Just a quick "ow!" moment the first time someone actually gets hit... probably wouldn't throw off the game balance all that much, but it would at least give you the feeling of swapping your weapon to take advantage of them being off balance, rather than it being an eye-roll "okay, I have to switch damage type now" element.

 

[Northpin]

i've sort of resorted to old Halo tactics, laser carbine while i run towards them, then punch punch punch. Or at range, switch to kinetic.

The Maverick suit is too limited with the one slot, so I think I'm going to have to change to something else for restoration scavs. might try the shotgun later. the executioner is good for single kills, but once they start to swarm it can get difficult to deal with.

Eh, i'm doin all my stuff in a Maverick. Sure is a G5 one, with extra battery and tracking
Using a G5 Tormentor and a G3 Executioner, but most of my fights are done with the Tormentor only.
I even cleaned 10 low CZ in a row with no deaths and 100% Tormentor kills.

Still, the impossibility to kill a Sentry Skimmer kinda makes me want to reconsider the above setup to an AR-50 and the Tormentor

 

[Demonlord79]

I'm only going to talk about Grade 1 weapons, because I don't have much experience with upgraded weapons.

So I like the idea of using lasers to strip the shields, and bullets to finish them off. The weapons look cool to me, especially the carbines.
But I feel like it takes too many hits to reduce the shields, and sometimes it's hard to switch and start hitting them with bullets again before their shields regenerate. the switching gives the enemy a break to run or hide.

The plasma weapons on the other hand seem to be 2 shot kills, 1 hit shields down and 1 hit dead, sometimes it takes a 3rd hit to finish them. It only takes one weapon slot, and you don't need to switch in between shots. They deplete shields and armour equally well.

So what is the supposed downside to using plasma?

Is it magazine size? - This is negated by infinite free ammo dumps.
Is it accuracy? - you have to be close for the shotgun, so not really, and the rifle is tricky to use on moving targets, but not impossible.
Is it cost? because with all guns we're talking small pennies here. (more than a spaceship money, but small money in game terms)

If you have a weapon that only removes shields, and doesn't touch health, it should remove shields better than a weapon that depletes both shields and armour equally well. And the same for a weapon that only damages health, it should perform better on health than a weapon designed to do both. At least that would be game balance as I understand it.

A weapon that does both well becomes the only choice... which is a silly way to go if you want players to "forge their own path".

Perhaps the multipurpose plasma weapons, at grade 1, should take 4 shots to kill, forcing a reload in there. It should only be this deadly at higher grades.

I have similar thoughts on the rocket launcher, in most games a powerful weapon like this would be limited by number of shots. But having free ammo dumps littering every settlement seems to break this limitation.
Perhaps the rockets should be consumables like grenades?

IMO the missiles in EDHO are about the same as if you melt ships shields find the targeting turrets and fire on sides away from them. Missile are devastating when fired mid to long range and do massive splash damage but not single target damage dumb fire being the highest, per say damage. I run fully high mag pack-hounds and two shots will take out a ships engines, as several nose or body close range shots can seriously do splash to all area modules. All being said the Fragment cannon is terrible at range but is pretty better at point blank or really close shots.
Just remember neither are good for single targeting, just explosive or ballistic splash damage and only WHEN SHIELDS ARE DOWN.
I hope this helps you out Commander......o7

 

[Cristari]

So what is the supposed downside to using plasma?

I have similar thoughts on the rocket launcher, Perhaps the rockets should be consumables like grenades?

Plasma has a slow time to target and the enemy can easily see it coming, Laser is more or less instant in comparison on the Plasma assault it has a very wide scatter rate and the plasma shotgun is very short range.

Rocket Launcher has no power {Lvl 1 to 5} up except the mods you add to it as far as I have seen so far and you carry very little ammo for it with you so having all these ammo dumps everywhere still isn't enough to just let you 'Nube Tube' it.

When you get your Armour and Weapons upgraded I think you'll understand it a little better. I currently run with the TK Aphilion (Laser rifle) at level 3 and the Rocket Launcher at lvl 2 with My Dominator Suit at level 2 or just the Rocket Launcher and my Mavrick Suit at lvl 3

 

[TSINI]

IMO the missiles in EDHO are about the same as if you melt ships shields find the targeting turrets and fire on sides away from them. Missile are devastating when fired mid to long range and do massive splash damage but not single target damage dumb fire being the highest, per say damage. I run fully high mag pack-hounds and two shots will take out a ships engines, as several nose or body close range shots can seriously do splash to all area modules. All being said the Fragment cannon is terrible at range but is pretty better at point blank or really close shots.
Just remember neither are good for single targeting, just explosive or ballistic splash damage and only WHEN SHIELDS ARE DOWN.
I hope this helps you out Commander......o7

ah sorry I see I missed out that I was talking about the handheld Odyssey guns here. I've edited it to be more specific. Thanks for the response though

 

[Koma Pahu]

i've sort of resorted to old Halo tactics, laser carbine while i run towards them, then punch punch punch. Or at range, switch to kinetic.

The Maverick suit is too limited with the one slot, so I think I'm going to have to change to something else for restoration scavs. might try the shotgun later. the executioner is good for single kills, but once they start to swarm it can get difficult to deal with.

That’s quite similar to my play style, I use a Zenith/C-44 combo. The Eclipse/P15 is pretty good too.

I prefer plasma for settlement scavenging missions, either clear the place first with the Executioner or carry the Intimidator in case I bump into scavs at close range while wandering around. I use the above combo when at crash sites and POIs.

 

[Demonlord79]

ah sorry I see I missed out that I was talking about the handheld Odyssey guns here. I've edited it to be more specific. Thanks for the response though

Sorry bout that one, my bad...