Player Owned Minor Factions - Update and Feedback.

[Zac Antonaci]

Greetings Commanders,

As most of you know we started an initiative last year which would allow player groups the opportunity to own their own minor faction. More important than this the plan is that as those player owner minor factions grow and expand they will be able to demonstrate their stronghold in the galaxy and eventual, the largest player owned minor factions would be able to contest to become a superpower in the game. There are other areas that we want to grow and develop the player owned minor factions too but there isn’t anything to announce right now.

As with any new process, the player owned minor factions is in a place where we can improve and adjust how we implement them based on feedback we’ve had from you guys. Which is why we wanted to post up this thread which details a few changes we would like to make to the way that these work and ask for your input and feedback on some other questions that we are considering.

System flipping

Previously all player owned minor factions going into the game could pick their own allegiance. However, we have decided that all new submissions will need to be the same allegiance as the system they are entering (if the system is controlled by a superpower). This is to avoid system flipping.

We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

Influence

To date, all new minor factions have been added in as the controlling faction. They are granted the highest influence and the controlling station and then they need to maintain this.

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

Exemption list and current factions

We will be publishing an exemption list and a list of the current minor factions in the group’s forum. For the exemption list, we current exclusive all superpower capital systems and permitted systems. We would like to know if (and why) other systems should be off limits and we will consider adding them to the list of exemptions.

Thanks for reading, I appreciate there is a lot of information here but if you have any questions at all, don’t hesitate to ask.

Thanks,

Zac

 

[DNA-Decay]

Yay!

I get that added groups should be system owners to begin with.
But.
Established player groups should have been able to get set up by now. (did the Rangers get in yet?)

Probably a couple of tidy ups still.

There's a few odd things like
Alliance Office of Statistics being a Bureaurocracy instead of a Corporate.
Their expansion should help not hinder Mahon, given that they are the in-game representation of The Mahon Reddit.

But mostly that looks like a solid set of changes.
I'm impressed.

Perhaps that sub forum will become a hotbed of player co-operation like the way CI and AOS sorted out the Business with Partha.

Perhaps.

 

[DavelKence]

IMO factions should be inserted with low influence, as if they have just moved in to the system, and need to work to take over bases and eventually flip it.

However, I'd prefer effort be put in to make sure the BGS mechanics actually work properly first ... just this week we've seen station flipping fail yet again after a won war, and expansions that fail to actually expand anywhere

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Influence

To date, all new minor factions have been added in as the controlling faction. They are granted the highest influence and the controlling station and then they need to maintain this.

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

This I never understood, getting control over a Systrem should involve doing something for it. Not to mention that based on the system other players might have worked hard to get a minor Faction in Control, so just gifting control to another faction over night is really not fair in any way.
And of course a faction that is new and just arrived having that much influence makes no sense at all.

 

[DaveC]

New factions should start with the 9% that newly expanded factions start with. Plus NO station ownership. Otherwise they can be placed in to a system that another group has already been working on, taking their station (having done no work whatsoever) and causing a lot of very bad feeling between themselves and the already resident group.

Edit: please be aware that many player groups are pushing multiple factions despite only having 1 registered with FD. So FD can be as careful as they like to make sure they're not treading on the toes of other groups' registered factions, but you won't know if you're hijacking the plans of a group's secondary factions. So just awarding the ruling station to some other group was always a crazy idea!

Edit2: we had the even crazier situation where instead of FD using our in-game minor faction that we've been pushing since day 1, they inserted another faction in to the system with almost the same name (the two factions are essentially "Faction" and "Faction." - note the period on the new one). The new faction jumped in at 60%, our expansion generator was robbed of the ruling station and dropped to 15%, and we've never had an explanation as to what happened or whether it can be fixed.

Edit3: Parachuting in a new faction to rule an exploited system also affects powerplay. Leesti very nearly had its fortification costs doubled thanks to the addition of The Code and ARC replacing two corporate government types. Fortunately, we'd already secured a safety cushion of 2 extra corporate (i.e. strong) systems for Mahon in that bubble, but months of work lowering fortification costs can be destroyed over night by the insertion of new factions with the wrong government type.

 

[Ian Phillips]

System Flipping

Is it possible that a minor power gets added to an Independant system as "Independant", but then the players have to work to change their allegience to one of the superpowers if they want to be aligned to one of them?

 

[Sepp]

For me, new minor factions in Independent systems ought to be Independent also, and a flip ought to be the result of action rather than imposition. It seems odd that you want to avoid auto-flipping a Major Faction-controlled system, but consider doing so to an Independent system. Independence of any organised body is an important political position.

As for influence, personally, I would rather that a new minor faction had to fight its way to the top.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
System flipping
…
We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

Influence
…
The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

Exemption list and current factions
… We would like to know if (and why) other systems should be off limits and we will consider adding them to the list of exemptions.
…

Only my opinion:

System flipping:
Player group "owned" minor-factions should always match the alignment of the system. If an independent system could be switched to a major power this would allow player groups to seed their favorite major faction somewhere where there is absolutely no system of that faction. This could harm what other players have been doing. It gives the player group a huge and unfair advantage.


Influence:
Let them start at 3.0% and work for their system. They already get a minor-faction as a present. Giving them more than that is an unfair advantage.

Exemption list:
All systems that are important in the lore. All systems that have some sort of strategic value. All systems that have a population higher than 10 mil.

 

[JeffRyan]

Yeah, I think system flipping via new PMFs was a mistake (in hindsight), I actually finally understand why the PI had to be Imperial (not that I ever wanted to be non-Imperial). To be honest I think most people who asked for a minor faction back for the Group 1 MFs honestly expected to start low and take control of the system (that's what I thought but I have a bad habit of skimming the rules).

Yes, I do think that's how it should be. I won't cry if that doesn't happen because I got an easy boost and can't complain if other people get it too.

 

[DNA-Decay]

That exemption list is going to be fought tooth and nail.

There's FDev generated lore, but there's also player lore.
There are reasons to exempt systems on purely strategic grounds.
Bad neighbours. Places your faction has expanded into or you are trying to get into.

The old well established groups have been given whole systems to start.
Which seems about right.

Now there are calls for new groups to start with as little as 3%.
That seems a bit rough.

If you can gather together half a dozen board gaming buddies and an enjin forum, maybe an outpost station and 30% is a sufficient start. Some of those groups won't thrive, but some will. There is always a slow turnover of personnel and important groups. Operation Winters is dead, Senior Aisling Leadship responsible for the Wolf 412 5C attack haven't been seen since December. New voices on the forums, different players doing the hard yards. Some players do consistent work month after month and their groups go on to great things.

I'm sure FDev want lots of interaction in the BGS.
That makes me pretty nervous.
I think war is a waste of resources.

I think these changes are timely and appropriate.

 

[babelfisch]

Influence

To date, all new minor factions have been added in as the controlling faction. They are granted the highest influence and the controlling station and then they need to maintain this.

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

Just an idea:

I know this would add work but I think a great way to handle starting influence would be a small community goal for each new faction. A new group declares a main focus which defines the corresponding CG, for example "Miners Union of System XY" would get a mining CG. A galnet article informs other players and groups so they can decide to help or hinder the progress of the new faction. Starting influence would be based on the tier they reached in the CG.

 

[orfeboy]

Delighted to see FD is engaging with these issues.

I understand that the implementation of new player factions is probably a complicated task and time consuming. FD are going to make mistakes or even just choices that do not suit everyone. It is hard to please everyone all of the time.

However, a recent choice has been made by FD to introduce player factions adjacent to existing factions. When I say adjacent I mean right beside each other. I have been playing the BGS since day 1 and like a lot of other on here have a pretty good understanding of how the game works by now. So, we all know that expansions don't have to expand into the system beside them but thath does not stop the sort of tension that will arise between player groups when this is done.

Those of us who understand how the mission system operates know that the same systems seem to be linked in the missions that are dealt between them. the galaxy is constructed with mission links between small groups of 3-4 systems. For example, System 'A' will constantly spawn missions that encourage you to attack or hurt system B. It does not matter what other systems live in system 'A' locality. The same systems keep popping up in missions. Now, if you put two player groups side by side you will inevitably start conflict between these two player groups. there is also the chance they might expand into each other. So what? Hard cheese?

I don't think so. Players work very hard to maintain and grow their systems. My group has been doing it religiously and like a second job for over a year. To have another faction thrown in beside you with 68% influence and ready to expand is like a kick in the teeth. What did they have to do to achieve that? Nothing.

On top of this you should consider that none of this is productive to either group. The old group will suffer and the new group will likely find themselves in a non-starter position.

So can you not be friends? Sure, you can make an agreement of some sort. that would be the wise thing to do. But what if the new guys are unwilling to do that? What if their soul purpose of picking that place was to ruin your game?

Do not underestimate how players will abuse this system currently in place.

If you doubt my words and disagree with my reasoning then I will request a minor faction for every one of our players around a known player group. We can always test the mecahnics as they are and how they perform...

Of course, I am not being serious here but I am sure you take my point.

FD seems to be encouraging playing the BGS at the moment but the way you are choosing to do it is as a precurser to Power Play. That means you are going to attract Power play minded players. This is exactly the kind of behaviour you will culture. You need to put protections in place now before the problems start.

This is a game and it should be fun. It does not take much to rule out systems in direct contact with existing player factions. It is the right thing to do.

PS: Also, I am not sure the award of permitted sytems to new players hould be allowed. It was my understanding before launch that permited systems were introduced to allow FD inject items in the future if need be. By handing these out you are limiting possiblites for the future not to mention the obvious tactical advantage you are giving to these groups. By that standard I would like to request a permit status for Lugh. I am sure there would be a que of players right behind me requesting the same for their system. Everyone knows the motives for requesting these systems.

FD has taken the stance that the backing of this recent motion has been to encourage players to engage with Power Play. You are encouraging a race to be a power. Myself and our group have absoloutely no interest in this race but for those who do I can see the disgruntlement that would be generated by groups who have permitted systems.

Oh how Lugh could escape the merit grinders of Power Play that have ruined the game for us if we had a permit...

Imagine that...

 

[Mephane]

superpower

Do you really mean they can become on-par with the entire Federation, Alliance, or Empire? Sure you didn't mean power instead of superpower?

We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

(...)

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

(...)

We will be publishing an exemption list and a list of the current minor factions in the group’s forum. For the exemption list, we current exclusive all superpower capital systems and permitted systems. We would like to know if (and why) other systems should be off limits and we will consider adding them to the list of exemptions.

- I think it was a mistake to ever create player factions with immediate system ownership. They should always start at a low influence (1%) and with no stations, and the player group (or anyone else willing to help) should work their way towards station and potentially system ownership. This would automatically moot the "flipping" issue, too.

- As another option, if you want to give player factions more to start with than just the faction and 1% influence: create a new, basic outpost with only minimal facilities (refuel, repair, rearm) for them. Preferrably at a planet that doesn't already have any other starports, outposts or planetary stations on/around itself or any of its moons.

- I'd go one step further and say, for all player factions that so far have been given system ownership for free, revert them to this state (basic outpost). Yes, lots of people would be angry, but so will another large lot of people who get their faction after this change, and feel punished for not registering earlier*. But you would have to chance to correct these mistakes and restore some semblance of sanity into the whole player faction affair.

- I suppose it is already on the list: Shinrarta Dezhra/Jameson Memorial/Pilot's Federation. This should be hard-locked the way it has always been.

*Edit: Do you really want a mad gold rush where everyone and their mother registers faction left and right as long as you are still handing out system ownership like candy on halloween?

 

[Apos]

I'd say.

Question A about Independents: Allow them to be placed everywhere, but prohibit them from systems with a reasonable distance from prohibited systems.

Question B about Influence: Start them low, around 5-9%. If an asset just has to be given, give them the lowest possible settlement from the list and not the top one. If the system only has a ruling station, then start barren.

Continuations from A: To be fair, apply the reasonable distance from prohibited systems to everyone that is from a different allegiance than said system. For example, within 30 LY of Alioth, only Alliance factions can be requested and likewise for the rest of them. Probably have a variable prohibited zone for each of them, like 30 LY for Alioth,Sol, Achenar, but only 20 LY for Lave, Facece, etc.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

System flipping

Previously all player owned minor factions going into the game could pick their own allegiance. However, we have decided that all new submissions will need to be the same allegiance as the system they are entering (if the system is controlled by a superpower). This is to avoid system flipping.

We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

I like this decision, though I think Independent systems should be able to get an aligned minor faction. Otherwise you force dedicated groups to either look for a new home, or force them to expand into their home system from elsewhere.

I think if a player group wants to be opposite from the controlling faction, then they can't be input into the system as the controlling faction.

Influence

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

Harkening back to the previous answer. I think player groups should start with a lower amount of influence where possible. Player groups should be granted either a planetary outpost, outpost, or starport, but not the controlling one. Granted, some systems only have one, and in that case, yes, grant them the controlling "node".

Thanks for reading, I appreciate there is a lot of information here but if you have any questions at all, don’t hesitate to ask.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

System flipping

Previously all player owned minor factions going into the game could pick their own allegiance. However, we have decided that all new submissions will need to be the same allegiance as the system they are entering (if the system is controlled by a superpower). This is to avoid system flipping.

We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

There is only one answer : no System flipping or Asset ownership change simply by inserting a Player Faction. Ever!
The only fair and realistic solution : add them in the same manner as any Faction would expand into a new System, that's it. Let them work it up from there, just like any other Player had and has to do it.

Benefits :
- keeps in line with existing BGS restrictions applying to non-grouped Players
- prevents "theft" (Faction/System sniping) by Groups with malicious intent
- prevents steamrolling over countless hours of work other (non-grouped) Players already invested [ which is a complete show-stopper, an absolutely critical issue and an utter NoGo ]
- no unfair privileges for Groups a.k.a. "comes with a Station and System control gift Package " [ see above ]

Thus adding a Faction with Allegiance into an Independent System would become a non-issue - as they'd have to work it up, just like any other Federation/Alliance/Empire Faction that expanded into an Intependent System.
That I see as fair Game, although it arguably adds a Government nucleus (undermining "clean" areas) where none could exist by natural means (not within 'striking distance' of any such Government Faction).
Solution : restrict placing of Factions w/ Allegiance into Independent Systems to a maximum Range from the nearest System in Control by the respective Government, i.e. 25-50LY.

Influence

To date, all new minor factions have been added in as the controlling faction. They are granted the highest influence and the controlling station and then they need to maintain this.

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

As stated above, add them with the starting Influence of any other Faction that would expand into a new System using the ordinary BGS mechanics.
It's the only way to keep things fair and not absolutely destroy immersion/realism/wipe the entire BGS restrictions in favor of an unfair privilege.
Also, it prevents mentioned steamrolling of other Players' hard work overnight. Avoid that at all cost. Worse than a can of worms. It's the proverbial Pandora's Box. Don't open. Ever.

Exemption list and current factions

We will be publishing an exemption list and a list of the current minor factions in the group’s forum. For the exemption list, we current exclusive all superpower capital systems and permitted systems. We would like to know if (and why) other systems should be off limits and we will consider adding them to the list of exemptions.

If abovementioned requirements are met, the restrictions you mentioned sound logical and very reasonable.

Just one more, based on a previous capital mistake : any System that is being colonized (new Station built etc.) via a Community Goal has to be clear of Player Groups other than those who requested and supported the CG.
And (most importantly), the result has to match what was promised in the CG. I.e. don't promise a Sanctuary for Explorers/Scientific Research Station - then deliver an Anarchy smuggling Hub. Absolute NoGo, no argument.

One of the most important things FDev likely needs, however, is this : full Telemetry.
Don't ever permit to place a Player Faction into a System of Group choice if this Group has never actually supported the area. Then they have absolutely no business there.
See it as a "proof of work", thus avoiding undeserved "freebies".
Only those who have proven (via Server Telemetry and History) that they actually already supported their cause as stated in their request, shall they be granted to their location of choice.

Benefit : avoids FDev falling victim to "sockpuppet" requests.
Anyone can create Forums and fill it with sockpuppets, simulating interest and activity - and effectively simulate a Group.
Server-based Telemetry to verify the valid nature of a request is the only defense against that.

---

Bottom line :

Player Groups and their insertion offer alot of benefits and chances for the future Gameplay and change the face of the inhabited bubble in a good way.
But only if done right, with lots of common sense and alot of attention to Detail !

So far, that's been critically missing.
Even worse, it degraded non-grouped Players who (sometimes more successful than some Player Groups) work the BGS as well and Support & Expand a Faction to 2nd/3rd class citizens.
Their progress was literally steamrolled over, stolen. Months of hard work all lost to a Group and all it took them was a single EMail. 5 Minutes of work.

Avoid that. Avoid hitting non-grouped BGS Players with a spiked crowbar into the face. Seriously, don't do that. They don't deserve that and that just ain't right. It isn't fair by any means.
If current implementation was to be maintained, it would mean the death of the BGS work for non-grouped Players (often the only remaining long-term goal to pursue for wealthy Players who have achieved everything else already).
And at every insert cycle, FDev would receive the mudstorm this careless implementation deserved so far.

 

[Javert]

Hi Zac, thanks for the update. Two questions

1) What exactly is this Exemption list. Does this just mean you cannot choose this as your home system, or also that the game will prevent any faction (player or NPC faction) from expanding into that system?

2) Have you considered whether allowing only one player group to expand to a power will cause issues where that Power will attract so many players that it might allow them to expand too much? In other words might it be better to have at least 2 groups become power rather than only one?

Glad to hear the list of existing player factions is going to be updated - it was getting a bit out of date.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

System flipping

Previously all player owned minor factions going into the game could pick their own allegiance. However, we have decided that all new submissions will need to be the same allegiance as the system they are entering (if the system is controlled by a superpower). This is to avoid system flipping.

We would love to know from your perspective, whether you feel independent systems should require a minor faction to be added which is independent or whether it should be allowed that a super power aligned minor faction should be allowed in independent systems (thus flipping that system, if it’s added as the controlling faction)

Well I guess if its either difficult from a code / resources point of view to clean up the mess that it causes then this is a viable option. It would be nice to have more control (from an administration point of view) with faction relationships and hostility levels, perhaps even alignment (perhaps even on the fly).

As a side note though I know of a few (probably more) factions that were Empire and added to an Empire system and it still ended up as Anarchy. Raised a ticket and to date (4 months) its still Anarchy. I guess what I'm saying is that unless the system of adding empire to empire / fed to fed etc etc works in the first place then is there much point setting it as a hard and fast rule?

Influence

To date, all new minor factions have been added in as the controlling faction. They are granted the highest influence and the controlling station and then they need to maintain this.

The question we’d like to ask you is if this is something we should continue or if you feel they should start with a lower amount of influence per new faction.

This comes back to how well the BGS is working, if its intuitive, interesting, exciting and rewarding to start from the bottom rung of the ladder then that would be where I would want to be placed. If however the BGS is a soul destroying fun sapping nightmare like it is now I would prefer to be given a high influence from the off so that you get some breathing room whilst you smash your head against the desk trying to work out the illogicality of if.

It also brings up the question of "Freedom fighters", the mechanic that Sandro mentioned ages ago that allow minor factions to actively appose power play incursion. As soon as you are gobbled up into the bubble then the whole issue becomes a moot point anyway. I would suggest looking at this point before bothering wasting time on what level of influence a new minor faction is given.

Exemption list and current factions

We will be publishing an exemption list and a list of the current minor factions in the group’s forum. For the exemption list, we current exclusive all superpower capital systems and permitted systems. We would like to know if (and why) other systems should be off limits and we will consider adding them to the list of exemptions.

Unfortunately that horse has already bolted, are there many lore important systems left anyway? If there are then yes sounds like a plan that should have been in since day one.........

Thanks for reading, I appreciate there is a lot of information here but if you have any questions at all, don’t hesitate to ask.

Thanks,

Zac

Thanks for asking Zac

 

[CalcaJVL]

I would like to "pledge" my minor faction and gain credits (or something else) defending system controlled by my minor faction against big power (Alising, Delaine ecc) ... if i remember well was one of the thing FD was thinking at , some times ago... i Hope they are still thinking about that, it would be cool...

 

[wstephenson]

System Flipping

Is it possible that a minor power gets added to an Independant system as "Independant", but then the players have to work to change their allegience to one of the superpowers if they want to be aligned to one of them?

This would be my preference. Low influence, independent starting point, motivating player factions to play the BGS to gain influence and possibly become aligned with a superpower. How would this superpower alignment mechanism work? I'm not sure. Perhaps by carrying out missions for other, aligned minor factions, or by trading with a superpower's factions. Or by your members' contributing to a superpower's community goals. This should be a long process, though.

Exemption list: any authored system, any system imported from the older Elite games. These belong collectively to the entire player base and should not be assigned to any player faction. Any system involved in FD authored plot, and their neighbours (30LY radius) to not favour any player faction as the story develops. Obviously, player-originated minor CGs only in player systems. Any system with rare commodities already present. Player factions should be able to earn rares for their system through player CGs.