Please further nerf thermal cascade

[Protein Carrot]

The only thing that the thermal shock nerf really achieved was that we just moved on from the age where people fought with mostly thermal shock to just fighting with cannons and missiles and thermal shock is just used to maintain the heat on the targets. Fights still only last as long as you have heatsinks and wing fights mostly just devolve to "use heat on this guy" until he either high wakes or gets a fsd/thruster malfunction and dies. The only real thing the cascade nerf did to the pvp thing was that instead of fights lasting like 2 minutes they now last 2-4 minutes in wing fights and ships that don't have enough utility slots are almost automatically unusable.

Don't misunderstand me whining about thermal cascade and shock as me saying that stuff the rest of the effects being balanced (which a lot of them are). Stuff like smart rounds are literally a downgrade to your ships pvp capabilities as you can't hit silent running ships and corrosive is ridiculously strong and since it doesn't scale based on dps you can use it on class 1 mc's and still get literally the same effect and not only that but it also affects your wingmates.

Please just give a lot of replies since frontier only cares about issues when it gets to the point that it is basically unavoidable so if we get like a couple of thousand reply threads going maybe they will do something.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

Frontier, this won't be fixed by simply 'tweaking the numbers'. A rework of this mechanic is needed. How about instead of simply dumping heat into the target's hull (uncounterable the moment you are able to push them above 100% heat, completely useless the moment you can't) - how about instead of this, applying a debuff that simply makes all normal sources of heat (SCBs, boosting, hot weapons, etc.) generate MORE heat?

 

[AutoMechancal]

Yeah to be honest thermal cascade is pretty much game breaking in a way that silent running never was and that got nerffed into the ground. I hope thermal cascade gets reworked at the bare minimum that or totally removed from the game.

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Yeah to be honest thermal cascade is pretty much game breaking in a way that silent running never was and that got nerffed into the ground. I hope thermal cascade gets reworked at the bare minimum that or totally removed from the game.

Sorry I meant to say engineers is game breaking.

 

[Cosmos]

I must say the heat meta game now is pretty bad. Its a poor mechanic thats been implemented by folks who don't understand their own combat game particuarly when it comes to PvP. I mean whats the point in shields if you have stuff that goes straight through them?

Combat has never been in a worse state in my view. Long ago it used to be somewhat based upon skill.. Now its a toxic set of cancerous meta builds based upon frying internal components. The fact you can do so much wreckage with zero skill missiles is just bambozling. There isn't even much of a counter other than heatsinks, which they nerfed to kill of silent builds. That didn't work either.

It's often said amongst folks I know that Frontier don't play their own game and its hard to argue against that given the state of things. Heat was simply ridiculous in the beta and it was pointed out by several folks, we are now months down the line and as more people have gotten hold of full grade 5 builds its clear little has changed despite a few nerfs.

I honestly don't even know where to start to explain how to fix this. I don't want to beat on the devs but really, this is plain silly now.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

I must say the heat meta game now is pretty bad. Its a poor mechanic thats been implemented by folks who don't understand their own combat game particuarly when it comes to PvP. I mean whats the point in shields if you have stuff that goes straight through them?

Combat has never been in a worse state in my view. Long ago it used to be somewhat based upon skill.. Now its a toxic set of cancerous meta builds based upon frying internal components. The fact you can do so much wreckage with zero skill missiles is just bambozling.

There is NO WAY that heat in it's current state should have even made it into the engineers beta. It is so incredibly obvious even completely theoretically that it was bound to be horrible.

 

[Cosmos]

There is NO WAY that heat in it's current state should have even made it into the engineers beta. It is so incredibly obvious even completely theoretically that it was bound to be horrible.

I just wonder how anyone at Frontier who tested all of this thought its okay.. My only conclusion is that it wasn't ever tested. I'll be happy to concede on this point if the devs come on here and explain themselves. Its possible, although highly unlikely, we are missing something.

[wacko]

 

[AutoMechancal]

Combat has never been in a worse state in my view. Long ago it used to be somewhat based upon skill.. Now its a toxic set of cancerous meta builds based upon frying internal components. The fact you can do so much wreckage with zero skill missiles is just bambozling.

It makes me want to stop playing the game and play something else.

 

[Kastor]

It really only seems stupidly powerful because it bypasses shields which wouldn't be and issue if shields didn't constitute 90% of health. In some dogfights I had with a "no scbs" rules people generally died from other stuff first. It seems fights last far longer than they were originally designed to and FD still haven't either fixed that or compensated for it.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

It makes me want to stop playing the game and play something else.

"Hey, some people are complaining about silent running, let's put in some weapons that overheat everyone's ships to like five billion percent. Then we'll nerf it a few months down the road but it will still be horrible, but no one will notice because it was so much more horrible before, but not really because you can still fry everyone's internals. No one will notice. Oh, and also do a separate nerf to silent running that basically makes the rail-de-lance useless"
–Sandro, probably

 

[Cosmos]

"Hey, some people are complaining about silent running, let's put in some weapons that overheat everyone's ships to like five billion percent. Then we'll nerf it a few months down the road but it will still be horrible, but no one will notice because it was so much more horrible before, but not really because you can still fry everyone's internals. No one will notice. Oh, and also do a separate nerf to silent running that basically makes the rail-de-lance useless"
–Sandro, probably

As it stands I can only really conclude they don't know what they are doing. Frontier needs to hire someone who has experience in these things. The entire mantra of the company for so long has been negative towards PvP and combat. Particuarly odd in a game where we fly ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships.

I've generally exhausted myself typing out essays and arguing over the game. Perhaps someone else can talk sense to the devs. meh

Its not without a sense of irony that the icuras cup only allows one engineer mod per team..

 

[Protein Carrot]

It really only seems stupidly powerful because it bypasses shields which wouldn't be and issue if shields didn't constitute 90% of health. In some dogfights I had with a "no scbs" rules people generally died from other stuff first. It seems fights last far longer than they were originally designed to and FD still haven't either fixed that or compensated for it.

There's no real point even going hull tanking because your overall hull hitpoints don't even matter when people can either just missile you, high yield cannon you or super pen rail/hammer you effectively bypassing all hitpoints not to mention the fact that all of that gets amplified by a very significant margin if you get hit by a corrosive weapon. Silent running will only remain relevant as long as it is a niche thing because just about every ship can run one emissive pulse turret which will keep you tagged essentially forever.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

There's no real point even going hull tanking because your overall hull hitpoints don't even matter when people can either just missile you, high yield cannon you or super pen rail/hammer you effectively bypassing all hitpoints not to mention the fact that all of that gets amplified by a very significant margin if you get hit by a corrosive weapon. Silent running will only remain relevant as long as it is a niche thing because just about every ship can run one emissive pulse turret which will keep you tagged essentially forever.

Agreed. Effectively, we are forced to shield tank because missiles, corrosive munitions, etc., are now so powerful against hull, and yet we can't because we have these cancerous heat weapons that force us to wake out as soon as we run out of heatsinks or die when all our modules fry.

EDIT: I love it that missiles and corrosive mutations are powerful against hull. Perhaps corrosives are a bit too powerful, but the real issue is that the only counter (shields) is not viable because of this cancerous heat meta.

 

[Kazacy]

This "new" (not really new people already complain a lot in beta) heat meta it's very bad at the moment. Personally in this game i encountered shield/scb meta, silent/rail meta and this heat meta. I adapted and learned how to use the first two but the last one.......... well if i spot a wing/gang in SC i run away, it's my only choice with my FAS against a full heat wing.
Of course i can't be sure but i am under impression the developers from Frontier never ever play their game, and when i say play i mean testing on pvp.

 

[Teryd]

It's not designed with 4v4 organized PvP in mind.

 

[thorn-]

DB has said he thinks heat is an interesting mechanic; others DEVs have agreed. They implemented heat months and months ago, and despite complaints, they just keep driving that train down the rails.

I often wonder if it matters less what the players think, as that isn't who the game is designed for.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

It's not designed with 4v4 organized PvP in mind.

Not productive.

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DB has said he thinks heat is an interesting mechanic; others DEVs have agreed.

I often wonder if it matters less what the players think, as that isn't who the game is designed for.

They need to hire someone who actually understands game design. Right now they're just insisting on rigid adherence to their 'vision', regardless of how much it actually screws over the players.

 

[thorn-]

The need to hire someone who actually understands game design.

Oh, to dream.

 

[Protein Carrot]

It's not designed with 4v4 organized PvP in mind.

It's not designed with any pvp in mind. The pvp is inherently extremely broken on so many levels right now ranging from 12v12 to 1v1 and open play barely even functions on a technical level even if we throw balance discussion out the window. The thermal weaponry is just the tip of the iceberg and even if it gets fixed there's still stuff like the fact that ttk is absurdly high with conventional firepower and the expansion power creep means that the game is essentially pay to win and grind to win at the same time and someone who doesn't have horizons is at such a massive disadvantage that a significantly worse player could beat a better player in a more expensive ship if he ground hard enough.

Not only did engineers break pvp but it also trivialized pve combat because being able to tank a high sec +++ base and three elite anacondas without breaking a sweat shouldn't happen and not even caring about stations shooting at you in a big ship for the next two or three minutes is just bad design. It's essentially impossible to die in a medium or large ship that is highly modified in pve even if you were the worst player in the universe when your ehp has been bloated to the extent that if you even know the basic game controls you have a couple of minutes tíme to react before you even have to be somwhere else.

 

[CR41G]

I think I'm missing something...Can someone, please, explain what the problem with heat is? I don't use SCB or Heat Sinks and I've never had a problem with heat. Is it a problem with Open Mode? I've heard a few people talking about it but don't really understand what they're all talking about. Thanks.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

It's not designed with any pvp in mind. The pvp is inherently extremely broken on so many levels right now ranging from 12v12 to 1v1 and open play barely even functions on a technical level even if we throw balance discussion out the window. The thermal weaponry is just the tip of the iceberg and even if it gets fixed there's still stuff like the fact that ttk is absurdly high with conventional firepower and the expansion power creep means that the game is essentially pay to win and grind to win at the same time and someone who doesn't have horizons is at such a massive disadvantage that a significantly worse player could beat a better player in a more expensive ship if he ground hard enough.

Not only did engineers break pvp but it also trivialized pve combat because being able to tank a high sec +++ base and three elite anacondas without breaking a sweat shouldn't happen and not even caring about stations shooting at you in a big ship for the next two or three minutes is just bad design. It's essentially impossible to die in a medium or large ship that is highly modified in pve even if you were the worst player in the universe when your ehp has been bloated to the extent that if you even know the basic game controls you have a couple of minutes tíme to react before you even have to be somwhere else.

Why did you bother with such a long response? Arguing with a comment like that gives it a legitimacy it doesn't deserve.