Please make the response to firing on a pirate before the scan completes more reasonable.

Jaitsu · Mar 14, 2015

As it stands, one can enter a Resource Extraction Site and spot an Anaconda engaged with a dozen Security Service ships and a known-to-be-clean Type 9 (or a pirate that's threatened you and is firing but hasn't hit yet), but the instant you fire on it, if you haven't finished scanning it, you're given a bounty, and every one of those Security Service ships suddenly decides your shiny new 300cr bounty is more attractive than the 5-digit bounty on the 'Conda. This seems a little... unreasonable. Now, I understand the logic; firing on a target without being 100% sure it's really wanted is reckless. But I haven't killed them, and assault isn't murder. So, like other reckless acts like station infractions - fine me! I'd even pay 10k in fines, maybe more, rather than 300cr in bounty for a mistake like that. But being given an instant death sentence that could cost me in excess of 2,000 TIMES that for being a little over-eager to fight the good fight is just excessive. This even happens if I'm alone with a pirate in normal space, and I shoot first. Instantly, "300 CR BOUNTY GAINED - ASSAULT OF (name)".

Canonically speaking, what's going on here? Feds picking up distress signals from ships THEY already know are pirates? They put out the bounty on them, I just haven't explicitly seen it yet. Who's telling them I didn't perform the scan?

Simi Kusoni · Mar 15, 2015

I wouldn't say there's much risk of it costing you your ship, it's mostly an annoyance that means returning to station.

It is kind of silly though: they let you fire on the target after your scan has completed, but not before. So police can tell what information we hold on other players and punish us based on our intent?

Even then, firing on the same target they are should be a safe bet.

From a practical point of view, maybe our clients aren't being updated with the bounty until the scan ends? It would prevent hackers from seeing bounties without using a KWS, so designing it that way kind of makes sense. And since the police behaviour is governed by the information our client has...

Jaitsu · Mar 15, 2015

Perhaps. But other times, the client definitely knows the target's alignment before you scan it. In LHS 3505, I've sufficiently... displeased the Crimson Mafia that they now spawn two wings of 2~3 at once, automatically hostile and homing in on me from the moment they appear. Prior to now, a red target always meant someone that had already engaged with me, and thus was safe to shoot. But now I'm turning around during one fight, seeing a red square and firing, only to get "300 CR BOUNTY GAINED"... and then about 12 more red squares as every fed in the vicinity instantly decides it's time to team up with the mafia to kill me. ...What?

karl_eller · Mar 15, 2015

I've found it pretty odd that some 8-odd Federation Security Officers will all stop firing at their target (which is clearly going to be wanted), just because I poked it before the scan was complete. Come on, anybody with eyeballs can see that he was wanted, but somehow the police know that I didn't complete my scan on him before firing, and thus I'm attacking an innocent civilian? I call on that.

Simi Kusoni said:
I wouldn't say there's much risk of it costing you your ship, it's mostly an annoyance that means returning to station.

With some of the Security swarms you can find in a RES at times, gaining police aggro when you don't expect it can make things... interesting. The AI has been buffed fairly significantly in their combat abilities (plus they're all flying in wings), and I've seen a lot more Security ships mounting cannons, beams, and missiles, which can make life fun.

Coccolino · Mar 15, 2015

Jaitsu said:
As it stands, one can enter a Resource Extraction Site and spot an Anaconda engaged with a dozen Security Service ships and a known-to-be-clean Type 9 (or a pirate that's threatened you and is firing but hasn't hit yet), but the instant you fire on it, if you haven't finished scanning it, you're given a bounty, and every one of those Security Service ships suddenly decides your shiny new 300cr bounty is more attractive than the 5-digit bounty on the 'Conda. This seems a little... unreasonable. Now, I understand the logic; firing on a target without being 100% sure it's really wanted is reckless. But I haven't killed them, and assault isn't murder. So, like other reckless acts like station infractions - fine me! I'd even pay 10k in fines, maybe more, rather than 300cr in bounty for a mistake like that. But being given an instant death sentence that could cost me in excess of 2,000 TIMES that for being a little over-eager to fight the good fight is just excessive. This even happens if I'm alone with a pirate in normal space, and I shoot first. Instantly, "300 CR BOUNTY GAINED - ASSAULT OF (name)".

Canonically speaking, what's going on here? Feds picking up distress signals from ships THEY already know are pirates? They put out the bounty on them, I just haven't explicitly seen it yet. Who's telling them I didn't perform the scan?

I second this. Absolutely.
Don't even give a fine if the ship in question reveals to be already wanted!

markuslig · Mar 15, 2015

a 300cr fine shouldn't even be reason for lethal force.

2chill · Mar 16, 2015

I agree! Having to wait for a scans to complete whilst you are being fired upon by a hostile wing is becoming somewhat annoying! It is even more annoying when you are in a system with only one station and each return to pay off the 600Cr becomes a game of chance with the surrounding Feds.

sp0q · Mar 16, 2015

+1. Screw the fine, just let me fly into the closest station to pay it without risking to get evaporated. Not to mention that the Fed's in the instance should simply ignore everyone with a bounty under 1k if it's impossible to determine it's cause. Or transmit a warning three times before going all bat****.

Jumbik · Mar 16, 2015

I had the same issue yesterday. I have attacked a pirate ship before the scan has finished and the cops got in furious rage over it. I had 400CR bounty on me due to it even though the target was Wanted criminal with more than 40K CR bounty. And they were firing on him before I engaged so it was clear he is not one of the "good" sort.

I had one million of unclaimed bounties at that moment and I was lucky enough to get away before they killed me. But it does not make any sence at all. I should have got a ticket for attacking before scanning but not bounty. That's really harsh when I can clearly see that he is not innocent.

Cops should be able to issue a ticket on place and give you a warning to not do it again or else they will shot you. But they should not treat you as a state enemy nr. 1 when you engage with a pirate before you scan him. Sometimes there is no time to even finish the scan or else you can be dead too...

Tidings · Mar 16, 2015

Agree. The simple solution is this:

Each time you hit an NPC without having them scanned as wanted, you incur a 200 CR fine.
Each time you hit a player who isn't scanned as wanted, you incur a 300 CR fine.
Once you have a 600 CR bounty, cops will shoot you.

Numbers can change, I just suggest that the npcs require a few mistakes before provoking a lethal response, and against players you get only one warning.

-Tidings

Coccolino · Mar 16, 2015

There's a factor to consider.
Imagine a trader and a pirate. The pirate attacks the trader... 200 Cr fine, no bounties = Police won't help the trader. Bad.
It's just a matter of issuing the fine/bounty only if the target is actually wanted or not, despite we scan him or not.

Dwarden · Mar 16, 2015

this is really problem and there needs to be priority list for the AI ...

low types of bounty shall not deserve lethal response from the security forces
(e.g. I see you got some small bounty, I suggest you leave the area and pay the fine at nearest station)
even now in real life, police is not going send SWAT with shoot first order only because you failed to pay traffic ticket

markuslig · Mar 16, 2015

I got a parking ticket just the other day, i'm lucky im not living in ED universe, i would have been shot in the face on sight.

Hagledesperado · Mar 17, 2015

Whenever I make this mistake (way too often), any immersion is immediately broken by the stark reminder that I'm playing against algorithms with an IQ of zero. So back to a station I go, la dee da, pay the fine, take off and head back for the RES, remind myself to scan scan scan. Bearable, but not my idea of great fun. This could be fixed in many different ways.

Jaitsu · Mar 21, 2015

...Okay, just discovered a factor that makes this even worse. Turrets set to Fire At Will mode will automatically fire on any enemy that's hostile to you, scanned or not. When you've sufficiently aggravated a faction, some of their ships become automatically hostile to you. As a result of this, my turret fires on them without so much as a click from me - and nets me a bounty. Keep in mind that these ARE pirates, WITH bounties on every single one - just not scanned. This is ridiculous, especially if Frontier is going to make bounties impossible to pay off for a few days after they're acquired. To top it all off, this is also doing significant damage to my reputation with the Federation, when I've already been struggling to get past Warrant Officer.

Note: This even applies to targets you're -trying- to scan. Target a ship to start scanning it, and even if your turret is just set to Target Only, well, now they're targeted. In a system with an auto-hostile faction, NO turret setting but Forward Fire is safe. I'm reporting this as a bug, not just as a suggestion...