Position and extend of the guardian bubble

[Mazelinho]

I did this research already back in July, but as it is, doing research is fun, writing a paper about it - well somewhat boring so I pushed it back again and again

I did some time consuming investigation into the so-called guardian bubble roughly 1000ly east of the human bubble. My Question was: Is it possible to establish the location and extend of this guardian area?

The short answer is yes: The guardian bubble has Gamma Velorum at it center and is (probably) perfectly ball-shaped with a radius of 750ly.

I used brain trees as markers to tell whether a system is part of the guardian bubble or not. If a system has brain trees - now greatly simplified with the introduction of the FSS - it is part of it. If it doesn't have brain trees, even though some planets are suitable for hosting them, it is outside the bubble (with a small caveat).

So did I determine whether is planet suitable for brain trees? CMDR Baton made an excellent forum post how and where to find brain trees for the pre-beyond game release. My research shows it is still largely correct with regard to roseum brain trees which was the only brain tree variant pre-beyond. Luckily the new strains of brain trees only increase (and not decrease) the number of possible planets with brain trees.

So I set out to find border systems. This was a time-consuming task. Many systems don't have suitable planets (volcanism plus suitable temperature) and the location of star systems would never perfectly fit a 750ly sphere around Gamma Velorum. Well at that time Gamma Velorum and 750ly was only a hypothesis, which means I needed at least a handful of border systems to have some statistical certainty.

Ironically, the very first guardian ruin system found, Synuefe XR-H d11-102, is a such a border system, and even a good one. It is 750.54ly away from Gamma Velorum and there are no brain trees in it. OTOH its neighbouring system, Synuefe PJ-D b46-6, which is 749.03ly away from Gamma Velorum, does have planets with brain trees. Another factlet which corrobates that 750ly is the radius is some GalNet article back then that described Synuefe XR-H d11-102 to be on the edge of guardian ruin space.

Another interesting factlet about Synuefe XR-H d11-102 is that pre-beyond this system had brain trees. I remember I witnessed them personally

A selection border systems I found:
Synuefe XR-H d11-102: 750.54ly, no BT
Synuefe PJ-D b46-6: 749.03ly, has BT
Synuefe PP-M d8-4: 749.93ly, has BT
Synuefe DP-P b38-2: 754.34ly, no BT
Plio Eurl DW-E d11-57: 745.63ly, has BT
Plio Eurl CS-J d9-15: 753.84ly, no BT
Plio Eurl IQ-R c19-0: 746.04ly, has BT
Plio Eurl FN-J d9-5: 750.22ly, no BT
Plio Eurl CK-K c23-2: 749.00ly, has BT

I mentioned a caveat about planets with brain trees above. As an example 'Plio Eurl IZ-T b44-4' is 742.39ly from Gamma Velorum, has planets suitable for brain trees but doesn't actually have them. Considering this is at odds with the many other system that are closer than 750ly which do have brain trees I suspect a stellar forge bug here. I (and others) found planets with vulcanism but without geological signals. I suspect the game code that produces geological locations also produces the locations of brain trees and as such I suspect this bug (or property?) to be the reason for non-existing brain trees there.

 

[Retropolitan]

This is a subject that interests me, too. But I'm not sure I agree that Brain Trees are the best indicator of where the area's boundaries are; the trees are definitely all over the region, but they extend far beyond the places where archaeological sites have been found.

So for me, anyway, there isn't yet enough data to say just where the boundaries and center point are. But I may look at your estimate when I decide where to search to the North and South of the known structure sites .

I'm trying to decide on the lower border these days.

 

[Thatchinho]

I did this research already back in July, but as it is, doing research is fun, writing a paper about it - well somewhat boring so I pushed it back again and again

I did some time consuming investigation into the so-called guardian bubble roughly 1000ly east of the human bubble. My Question was: Is it possible to establish the location and extend of this guardian area?

The short answer is yes: The guardian bubble has Gamma Velorum at it center and is (probably) perfectly ball-shaped with a radius of 750ly.

I used brain trees as markers to tell whether a system is part of the guardian bubble or not. If a system has brain trees - now greatly simplified with the introduction of the FSS - it is part of it. If it doesn't have brain trees, even though some planets are suitable for hosting them, it is outside the bubble (with a small caveat).

So did I determine whether is planet suitable for brain trees? CMDR Baton made an excellent forum post how and where to find brain trees for the pre-beyond game release. My research shows it is still largely correct with regard to roseum brain trees which was the only brain tree variant pre-beyond. Luckily the new strains of brain trees only increase (and not decrease) the number of possible planets with brain trees.

So I set out to find border systems. This was a time-consuming task. Many systems don't have suitable planets (volcanism plus suitable temperature) and the location of star systems would never perfectly fit a 750ly sphere around Gamma Velorum. Well at that time Gamma Velorum and 750ly was only a hypothesis, which means I needed at least a handful of border systems to have some statistical certainty.

Ironically, the very first guardian ruin system found, Synuefe XR-H d11-102, is a such a border system, and even a good one. It is 750.54ly away from Gamma Velorum and there are no brain trees in it. OTOH its neighbouring system, Synuefe PJ-D b46-6, which is 749.03ly away from Gamma Velorum, does have planets with brain trees. Another factlet which corrobates that 750ly is the radius is some GalNet article back then that described Synuefe XR-H d11-102 to be on the edge of guardian ruin space.

Another interesting factlet about Synuefe XR-H d11-102 is that pre-beyond this system had brain trees. I remember I witnessed them personally

A selection border systems I found:
Synuefe XR-H d11-102: 750.54ly, no BT
Synuefe PJ-D b46-6: 749.03ly, has BT
Synuefe PP-M d8-4: 749.93ly, has BT
Synuefe DP-P b38-2: 754.34ly, no BT
Plio Eurl DW-E d11-57: 745.63ly, has BT
Plio Eurl CS-J d9-15: 753.84ly, no BT
Plio Eurl IQ-R c19-0: 746.04ly, has BT
Plio Eurl FN-J d9-5: 750.22ly, no BT
Plio Eurl CK-K c23-2: 749.00ly, has BT

I mentioned a caveat about planets with brain trees above. As an example 'Plio Eurl IZ-T b44-4' is 742.39ly from Gamma Velorum, has planets suitable for brain trees but doesn't actually have them. Considering this is at odds with the many other system that are closer than 750ly which do have brain trees I suspect a stellar forge bug here. I (and others) found planets with vulcanism but without geological signals. I suspect the game code that produces geological locations also produces the locations of brain trees and as such I suspect this bug (or property?) to be the reason for non-existing brain trees there.

That's some excellent independent thinking and work there, OP!

However, and I hope this doesn't put a dampener on things in anyway, I'd thought this (the general nature of the main Guardian bubble) had been established a long time back.

I had a fair hand in it all, and in particular established that Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3 (the system referenced by various Thargoid objects) was effectively on the edge of Guardian space.

That's all written up in an EDSM mystery POI. Worth having a read if you haven't seen it before: https://www.edsm.net/en_GB/galactic-mapping#2/0/0/25000|mysteryPOI|1736

Lots of details are lost in the depths of various threads though, and it's great to see someone going out and doing this stuff and establishing some more boundary systems!


A few points on specific parts of the post:

My research shows it is still largely correct with regard to roseum brain trees which was the only brain tree variant pre-beyond.

Yeah, pretty much everything we established pre-beyond has been confirmed explicitly via the descriptions in the Codex for the Roseum Braintrees - the only things that aren't specifically mentioned are that they occur in Guardian related space, and that they occur in and around Ejecta craters. The later can be readily observed following mapping though - however, it's not an exclusive rule, they almost always appear in and around Ejecta craters, but aren't restricted to just those areas.

Also, I don't think we actually know that only Roseum braintrees existed pre-beyond. I do vaguely recall that someone had claimed seeing a different coloured variant but it never got properly confirmed. Part of the reason for only finding Roseum braintrees is that once we'd established that they occured in ejecta craters, that's where we looked. It wasn't until Baton did a few full eyeball searches of planets looking for anemones that it was established that the roseum braintrees occured around ejecta craters, not just in them. Personally, I suspect that the other variants were there and just not found.

Ironically, the very first guardian ruin system found, Synuefe XR-H d11-102, is a such a border system, and even a good one. It is 750.54ly away from Gamma Velorum and there are no brain trees in it. OTOH its neighbouring system, Synuefe PJ-D b46-6, which is 749.03ly away from Gamma Velorum, does have planets with brain trees. Another factlet which corrobates that 750ly is the radius is some GalNet article back then that described Synuefe XR-H d11-102 to be on the edge of guardian ruin space.

Another interesting factlet about Synuefe XR-H d11-102 is that pre-beyond this system had brain trees. I remember I witnessed them personally

Yeah, it was Braintree-less in the 3.3 beta. Bug reported it and asked for clarification of whether it was bug or intended. For reference: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...ossibly-not-a-bug-but-raising-in-case.461531/

I mentioned a caveat about planets with brain trees above. As an example 'Plio Eurl IZ-T b44-4' is 742.39ly from Gamma Velorum, has planets suitable for brain trees but doesn't actually have them. Considering this is at odds with the many other system that are closer than 750ly which do have brain trees I suspect a stellar forge bug here. I (and others) found planets with vulcanism but without geological signals. I suspect the game code that produces geological locations also produces the locations of brain trees and as such I suspect this bug (or property?) to be the reason for non-existing brain trees there.

Yeah, there's a few oddities around, for example I found a system where there were bodies with braintrees around a secondary star but the bodies around the primary star which should have had braintrees didn't. Found a few other oddities around where some systems didn't have braintrees but seemed to be in locations that should - they're exceptions though and generally the estbalished rules work almost all the time.

Anyway, top work. Will PM you and @Retropolitan something to (potentially) help your ongoing efforts.

 

[Mazelinho]

This is a subject that interests me, too. But I'm not sure I agree that Brain Trees are the best indicator of where the area's boundaries are; the trees are definitely all over the region, but they extend far beyond the places where archaeological sites have been found.

What I'm certain about is that it's a 750ly radius ball-shaped space with Gamma Velorum at it's center and filled with brain trees. To be very correct "filled with brain trees" is not the same as "guardian things", but since it's well established that brain trees and and guardian things go together I defend my little sloppy assessment "guardian bubble"

Personally I believe Frontier spanned this 750ly ball-shaped region to put guardian stuff in there the guardians colonized this region and (un-)willingly spread brain trees with it. I suspect systems with ruins can be found throughout this 750ly bubble. In particular I suspect lots of undiscovered ruins on the far side/east of the regor sector. From my travels this far-side region is much less explored than the well-known near side region. Also the stranded megaship "The Cete" is located at the far side. I wouldn't be surprised if a group effort to systematically search a sub-region there would uncover a few guardian ruins.

So for me, anyway, there isn't yet enough data to say just where the boundaries and center point are. But I may look at your estimate when I decide where to search to the North and South of the known structure sites .
I'm trying to decide on the lower border these days.

According to Canonn's ruin spreadsheet the number of ruins per system see decrease with distance to Gamma Velorum. But of course that doesn't preclude an odd system that defies this rule. That and it started with guardian ruins. Guardian structures were added later to the game.

 

[Retropolitan]

...In particular I suspect lots of undiscovered ruins on the far side/east of the regor sector. From my travels this far-side region is much less explored than the well-known near side region.... I wouldn't be surprised if a group effort to systematically search a sub-region there would uncover a few guardian ruins.

Oh, yes - that area's very interesting. I have an alt CMDR who's been stuck in the bubble lately, but he was working on a project out East of Regor last Summer. I need to get him back out there in the new year.
I agree that more ruins are likely out that way. I'd love to find more than that, but I doubt there's more there.

Whenever Fleet Carriers become available - and if they're useful - I'd like to take one out to the Guardian area East of the Eta Carinae Nebula. It'd make a nice staging area for a trip to that other area that's even farther East.

 

[Leadfoot]

I did this research already back in July, but as it is, doing research is fun, writing a paper about it - well somewhat boring so I pushed it back again and again The short answer is yes: The guardian bubble has Gamma Velorum at it center and is (probably) perfectly ball-shaped with a radius of 750ly.
--- SNIP ---
So I set out to find border systems. This was a time-consuming task. Many systems don't have suitable planets (volcanism plus suitable temperature) and the location of star systems would never perfectly fit a 750ly sphere around Gamma Velorum. Well at that time Gamma Velorum and 750ly was only a hypothesis, which means I needed at least a handful of border systems to have some statistical certainty.

Hi, question: You said you did this research in July 2019, correct? I just logged in now to bookmark Gamma Velorum and it appears that you now need an 'unknown permit' to get there. In fact, the entire area known as REGOR SECTOR (which surrounds it) is also blocked off with the same 'unknown permit' required. Was that in effect when you did your research or did that happen between your July research and today? I was thinking of getting lost for my "vacation" in January and though I'd go wander out that way.

EDIT: Permit seems to have been in place for some time now but still curious about when it was set up since I hadn't ever noticed it before.

 

[Mazelinho]

EDIT: Permit seems to have been in place for some time now but still curious about when it was set up since I hadn't ever noticed it before.

Regor region has been permit locked for a long time. I'm quite sure I saw it locked before Horizons was released.

I would have missed this region too if I hadn't read about it in a forum post.

 

[Jmanis]

Regor region has been permit locked for a long time. I'm quite sure I saw it locked before Horizons was released.

I would have missed this region too if I hadn't read about it in a forum post.

It's been locked since the game's launch.

The various sectors around Barnards Loop/ cone sector were the only ones I'm aware of which were unlocked at launch, and became locked later.

 

[Leadfoot]

Regor region has been permit locked for a long time. I'm quite sure I saw it locked before Horizons was released.
I would have missed this region too if I hadn't read about it in a forum post.

Same for me. I just started looking at this information in planning for some place to get lost in for my "vacation."
This was the first I had heard about something other than COL 70 SECTOR being locked since Horizons.

It's been locked since the game's launch.
The various sectors around Barnards Loop/ cone sector were the only ones I'm aware of which were unlocked at launch, and became locked later.

Thanks for the clarification. I had made a trip to Barnard's Loop and the Horsehead area during the first year of the game in my Cobra. I was a tad upset that lots of that area is now locked since I wanted to go back there for some screen shots.

 

[Mazelinho]

However, and I hope this doesn't put a dampener on things in anyway, I'd thought this (the general nature of the main Guardian bubble) had been established a long time back.
...
That's all written up in an EDSM mystery POI. Worth having a read if you haven't seen it before: https://www.edsm.net/en_GB/galactic-mapping#2/0/0/25000|mysteryPOI|1736

I read some bits and pieces about guardian stuff, but I didn't do extensive research beforehand, so I fully expected some of my work to be redundant.

What seems to be new though is that

• it's a ball shaped space of brain trees
• Gamma Velorum is at the center and therefore special

I might have missed it, but I didn't see these two points mentioned explicitly and I consider them significant. Gamma Velorum is a Wolf-Rayet class star and these are quite rare. Is it just coincidence? If not, did the guardians do something in that system that's only possible with Wolf-Rayet stars? If the guardians had a knack for this kind of star it might be worth checking out the area around other wolf-rayet stars.

 

[Thatchinho]

I read some bits and pieces about guardian stuff, but I didn't do extensive research beforehand, so I fully expected some of my work to be redundant.

What seems to be new though is that

• it's a ball shaped space of brain trees
• Gamma Velorum is at the center and therefore special

I might have missed it, but I didn't see these two points mentioned explicitly and I consider them significant. Gamma Velorum is a Wolf-Rayet class star and these are quite rare. Is it just coincidence? If not, did the guardians do something in that system that's only possible with Wolf-Rayet stars? If the guardians had a knack for this kind of star it might be worth checking out the area around other wolf-rayet stars.

Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff that’s buried away in the threads. Not sure where you read up on the stuff, but there’s probably quite a lot that wouldn’t be spotted without reading through all threads, which wouldn’t really be practical I wouldn’t think. (Plus the forum search is borked at the moment so tracking down specific stuff is a mare.)

Anyway, it’s actually a good thing that it wasn’t mentioned explicitly IMHO - it means you worked it out independently, which is more of an achievement, and helps corroborate the result.

On GV itself, not sure if it’s the actual centre, or origin point of some kind - we won’t be able to tell for sure until we can get through the permit.

The Guardian history is that they originated on an ELW a bit hotter and brighter than Earth, and then an event happened which lead to a dimming of the sun of some kind. That lead to some to speculate that GV was the Guardian home system, but that always seemed to be more just because it had a slightly unusual star type rather than it being something which would actually happen with that star type. A big thing counting against that idea is that the WR and it’s O class Binary in GV are only around 4.5Myrs in age. The O class in the other binary pair is only 8Myrs in age, and the identity of it’s binary partner is unconfirmed. Given that our solar system is around 1,000 times older, and has only comparatively recently developed complex life, we can safely say that GV is nowhere near old enough to be the Guardian’s home system. (Barring FD not thinking it through, or some handwavium going on.)

Anyway, I digress slightly, but that’s all buried away so thought I may as well add that stuff in.

What I think is quite interesting about GV in other terms is that it’s the closest WR to Sol by a long way. Which would make it a target for a scientific probe mission. We’ve had hyperspace travel for just under 1200 years. It’s probably fair to say that that mission (or missions) happened a long time ago. And that permit lock on the region didn’t just get put there randomly for no reason.