Possible solution to reduce griefing of new commanders

[bigtaff]

I read earlier today the thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=165759, (which has now been locked) about a Cmdr whose newbie son was getting griefed as soon as he started, and I thought of a possible solution without having to go into Solo/Group mode. Apologies if someone has already posted this

When someone creates a new Cmdr could they not spawn at a random Empire/Federation/Independant station (not Anarchy)? that way they avoid the campers/Griefers who wait outside the normal starting station for them, thus giving them a chance to progress a bit.

 

[GunnerBill]

Some fps when you spawn you are invulnerable for a few seconds.

Now before the haters get fired up...

Perhaps n00bs... I dunno can we not find a way like OP says to make life a little happier for them. Just til they get the hang of it?

How about no buy back costs until reaching 'mostly harmless' in any discipline?

 

[Jacob Marshall]

...

How about no buy back costs until reaching 'mostly harmless' in any discipline?

Is actually not a bad idea.

 

[Captain Willard]

Why change open when solo and co-op are already available. If you don't like 1 mode leave, there are 2 others

 

[andyraptor]

Why change open when solo and co-op are already available. If you don't like 1 mode leave, there are 2 others

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This

It's a bit like saying zombies can't bite or kill me for 3 days in Dying Light..... play the game fellas

 

[Kolato]

Is actually not a bad idea.

Then people will just trade their way up the top with no risk whatsoever

 

[Captain Willard]

The top of what? I have an asp and clipper, So I guess I'm already there.

 

[CMDR MrChips]

Making it actually random is going to cause a whole host of problems. Remember the absolute garbage ship you start the game with. If you make it completely random you're going to get people stuck because they can't upgrade their FSD to get out of where they start, or they're going to get bored because there are no RES or decent markets/missions, etc.

You'd need to handpick systems that are actually viable in terms of available resources, outfitting etc. so unless these were chosen by an algorithm that checks for these conditions to make the number of starting systems very large, the ones you do pick are going to end up being known as the newbie areas and you'll end up with the same cretins doing the same thing.

The immediate response from a lot of people is "just move away from the starter systems and it's fine." Those people are forgetting that with the starting ship and FSD it's not actually possible to do that. The new player experience in this game spawns you in a cluster of systems that are known and accessible to everyone else, and then traps you there to serve as someone else's shooting gallery.

This is terrible. Compare this to Eve, which seems to be regarded as the Great Satan round these parts, where new players:

1. Start in systems with the highest possible security level, where an unprovoked attack on them means instant death for the aggressor.
2. Are able to travel anywhere with the starting ship and equipment.
3. Are protected by game policy which declares it a bannable offense to bait them with theft/duel mechanics or otherwise mess with them in the 9 or so designated starter systems.

New players in Elite are at far, far greater risk of ganking and bullying than new players in Eve, which is ridiculous considering the howls of rage that are provoked here any time anyone suggests implementing anything that Eve already has because "waaah Eve players are horrid sociopaths who pull the legs off flies and we don't want them here in our nice friendly game".

If the server has enough information to just ban anyone who ganks a sub-Novice player in a sidewinder/eagle/hauler/adder, within 15 Ly of LHS 3447 I'd just do that, if it were up to me. It's pathetic, and even in one of the most brutal, no-holds-barred pvp games out there the developers do not put up with it.

Given the constraints of P2P architecture however, maybe the no-rebuy thing is the best we can do.

 

[askavir]

Still think this would be solved if the act of murder put way bigger, commulative, longer-lasting bounties on the player's head. But 2 things must be accomplished for it to work:

1 - some way to avoid exploiting like the murderer switching to a sidewinder and having a friend kill him for the huge bounty. This is the hardest part.
2- a functional way for bounty-hunter players to track / find the murderers. CUrrently you can check a list of a system highest bounties on stations, but its nearly impossible to find them because of instancing. You should be able to "accept" a mission to hunt down someone from the "most-wanted" list, and be guaranteed to be on the same instance of your target (if in the same system) to have a chance to find it.

 

[xaisis]

I read earlier today the thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=165759, (which has now been locked) about a Cmdr whose newbie son was getting griefed as soon as he started, and I thought of a possible solution without having to go into Solo/Group mode. Apologies if someone has already posted this

When someone creates a new Cmdr could they not spawn at a random Empire/Federation/Independant station (not Anarchy)? that way they avoid the campers/Griefers who wait outside the normal starting station for them, thus giving them a chance to progress a bit.

A Very good idea, a kinds of safezone for the new players to learn about the game.

Then people will just trade their way up the top with no risk whatsoever

Umm well that is already possible, but a new player might not know that

Still think this would be solved if the act of murder put way bigger, commulative, longer-lasting bounties on the player's head. But 2 things must be accomplished for it to work:

1 - some way to avoid exploiting like the murderer switching to a sidewinder and having a friend kill him for the huge bounty. This is the hardest part.
2- a functional way for bounty-hunter players to track / find the murderers. CUrrently you can check a list of a system highest bounties on stations, but its nearly impossible to find them because of instancing. You should be able to "accept" a mission to hunt down someone from the "most-wanted" list, and be guaranteed to be on the same instance of your target (if in the same system) to have a chance to find it.

Well there could be some kind of loss when killed, besides cr. maybe rank or something else.
Or let the bounty be bound to the ship that did the killing, not the pilot.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

Then people will just trade their way up the top with no risk whatsoever

?

...
How about no buy back costs until reaching 'mostly harmless' in any discipline?

Just in case;
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Trader

'Mostly' penniless; personally, I've no idea of how to trade to the top while by-passing the 1st rank.

It's not a silver bullet, but it would give people some wiggle room to figure out that all players start in the same area, with the same lack of resources and that there are players that will happily blow beginners out of the sky.

 

[nosscar]

But the solution is already there, the player should have just created a private group, solo, or join Mobius, taken his son in there and learn him the ropes.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

But the solution is already there, the player should have just created a private group, solo, or join Mobius, taken his son in there and learn him the ropes.

Actually...in this vein. Been a while but iirc you can't join 'Open' until you've left the starter system at least once?

I think that's how it works; is there a warning message about the ruthlessness (or just a caution of the danger) of 'Open' prior to joining?

I'm starting to wonder if I'm supporting a change to something that already gives a reasonable amount of warning.

 

[Defacto]

How about no buy back costs until reaching 'mostly harmless' in any discipline?

How will this solve anything? You don't have any buyback costs when you're starting out anyway.

Back when the bounty system was discussed in the DDF, most people agreed that the bounty system would function in such a way that random noobkilling was heavily discouraged. Why don't we make that happen?

 

[HurstLlama]

I am not sure a fix is needed, I am certain that FD will not deliver one. FD's view seems to be that everyone is entitled to play the game how they want to (providing they don't actually get caught cheating in such a way that FD has to intervene). That philosophy leads to the fact that by playing in open one is volunteering to be the victim of any other player regardless of any other factors. Maybe FD could be persuaded to put in a warning but I doubt it.

Players joining in open must accept that by doing so they are volunteering to be some physco's b itch - if they don't like that idea then at least the game provides them with alternatives.

 

[Ian Skippy]

How will this solve anything? You don't have any buyback costs when you're starting out anyway.

Back when the bounty system was discussed in the DDF, most people agreed that the bounty system would function in such a way that random noobkilling was heavily discouraged. Why don't we make that happen?

This. The Sidey is free, so dying is free in the beginning. For a whole after that the buy back is only a fraction of your loan, so dying is still free. When a new player is killed for whatever reason, he/she only loses bounties/cargo/unfinished missions. The real damage is done to fragile egos. The new bounty system is a step in the right direction, now all we need is stronger system authority in high-security sectors and we're done.

Btw, the original topic is depressing to me. In computer games you start out weak and you'll slowly learn how to become better and better. This has always been the case, from pong and pacman to today. But the last +-15 years or so there has been a trend to make games easier and easier, and people have become more and more allergic to perceived failure. Now people are upset every single time something happens in a game. And their solution? Complaints, demands and quitting. May advice: do the tutorials, read the manual, start in Open and stop being so weak.

 

[askavir]

This. The Sidey is free, so dying is free in the beginning. For a whole after that the buy back is only a fraction of your loan, so dying is still free. When a new player is killed for whatever reason, he/she only loses bounties/cargo/unfinished missions. The real damage is done to fragile egos. The new bounty system is a step in the right direction, now all we need is stronger system authority in high-security sectors and we're done.

Btw, the original topic is depressing to me. In computer games you start out weak and you'll slowly learn how to become better and better. This has always been the case, from pong and pacman to today. But the last +-15 years or so there has been a trend to make games easier and easier, and people have become more and more allergic to perceived failure. Now people are upset every single time something happens in a game. And their solution? Complaints, demands and quitting. May advice: do the tutorials, read the manual, start in Open and stop being so weak.

Totally agree.

A growing number of people just can't stand the idea of losing from time to time, and are becoming completely incapable of dealing with failure or even adversity. Its like they feel that they are entitled to "win" by birth right. This is a society issue, that is just reflecting on videogames and thus Elite.

 

[bigtaff]

A lot of good comments made about this, however the last two seem to me to be totally missing the point of the post

At the moment the advantage is all with the Griefers/Gankers, as all they have to do is sit outside the only spawn station in the game and wait for a new Cmdr to leave the gate. By having a random spawn point, you stop all that, it might still be possible that after leaving your spawning station you might encounter a Griefer/Ganker but that will be a random chance, you could also encounter a pirate on your first trip and lose all your cargo, fair enough.

Whether we like it or not, games have changed/evolved over the years and whilst us older gamers might be prepared to put up with a steep learning curve and have learned the patience needed to persevere with a game such as ED, a lot of younger players raised on console games have not learned it.

I am not advocating making the game easier for newcomers I'm advocating making it fairer for them. Also anything that goes some way towards removing incentive for these Morons/Griefers/Gankers might encourage more players to stay in open at an earlier styage, rather than moving to Solo/Group mode and then staying there.

 

[Ian Skippy]

A lot of good comments made about this, however the last two seem to me to be totally missing the point of the post

At the moment the advantage is all with the Griefers/Gankers, as all they have to do is sit outside the only spawn station in the game and wait for a new Cmdr to leave the gate. By having a random spawn point, you stop all that, it might still be possible that after leaving your spawning station you might encounter a Griefer/Ganker but that will be a random chance, you could also encounter a pirate on your first trip and lose all your cargo, fair enough.

Whether we like it or not, games have changed/evolved over the years and whilst us older gamers might be prepared to put up with a steep learning curve and have learned the patience needed to persevere with a game such as ED, a lot of younger players raised on console games have not learned it.

I am not advocating making the game easier for newcomers I'm advocating making it fairer for them. Also anything that goes some way towards removing incentive for these Morons/Griefers/Gankers might encourage more players to stay in open at an earlier styage, rather than moving to Solo/Group mode and then staying there.

Few things. First of all, we have multiple starting zones (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...here_did_you_start_lets_get_a_list_of_starter). Also, I'm pretty sure that you are already in a safezone the first time you start Open as a new game. You only go to 'real' Open after your first jump. As such the only victims in the starting zones are those who *chose* to hang around there. The new bounty system makes it a community choice if we want 'newbie-griefers' or not: shoot one newbie and you're tagged 'wanted' for a whole week. What does it take to patrol these beginner systems? No more than a single wing of decent pilots per system. If 1% of all the people saying how terrible newbie-griefers are would spend a tiny bit of their time patrolling these systems the entire problem would be gone. If none of us want to do that, hey, guess we've decided what kind of starter zone we want.

Note: plenty of folks actually do patrol these starting zones. As a result, combined with the new bounty system, you simply dont find many griefers there, usually none at all. New players have the tutorials, can practice in solo, try PvE first in group-mode and are protected initially when they start new in open (or they can just move to wherever in solo first). This game is not unfair to new players. If I were to clear my safe, and you wanted to grief me, I could 99.999999% guarantee you wont have the chance. At all. This whole 'immediately upon leaving the station I was killed' is simply not true. Seriously, just go there and see for yourself, I challenge you. I have played this game since launch. I frequently fly Eagles, Haulers and Adders for the fun. I have been 'griefed' once, when in a Sidewinder for fun, and I even escaped. Can we please stop pretending ED is a super dangerous game with millions of murderous psychopaths? Or can we at least just check the problem out ourselves before we run to the panic room?

Maybe I'm 'missing the point', but at least my points are based on how the game really works, rather than on scary stories told around a campfire.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

We could give them some control over matchmaking, so they don't meet other players or only a certain Type of other players if they want. Hmmm...