Powerplay and why it makes no sense!!!

[Kapow]

Powerplay/Law and order, why it makes no sense!!! Mechanic propositions

Let me just begin by saying that I like Elite dangerous as a whole. I'm also looking forward to all the upcoming updates and I have high hopes, but I just have to get this off my chest and see what the rest of you think. Maybe if enough of us back change it might come.

Powerplay as it currently stands is just a grind, which is something I could somewhat get over (doesn't mean I would like it though), however Powerplay in Open is even more messed up. A commander friend of mine got pulled out today by a wing of 3 large ships - cutters and the likes while he was flying in his Anaconda. Irony is that he was pulled out by players of the same faction and they immediately opened fire even though he stopped and didn't deploy hard points and opened chat comms. As he never combat logs all he could do is try to communicate with the wing of the ships (using text chat over and over) and wait until they blow him up as there was no way that a slow (low end anaconda) has any chance against a wing of three fully armed elite ships which are faster then him and mass lock. This is by far not the first time we have been attacked by pretend allies, but unluckily I wasn't present this time to at least give him cover to fly away in the more expensive ship.

My point is that while I have nothing against people just randomly attacking other players as they are having their "moment" (that is a normal part of the game and bounties somewhat address that and give jobs to other commanders like myself) I do seriously despise the immersion breaking experience of powerplay. Allied forces attacked by Supposed Allies without any real punishment. If you attack and destroy (attack can be accidental, but destruction is always planned ) you should be immediately classed as traitor. Your name should appear on all stations of the Power and the bounty/merit award should be something to behold so such acts of bizarre allied behavior don't happen. It should also mean that you can not join that power for a considerable time and you should remain classed as traitor on the scan so all player clearly see that and act accordingly. This would not only add immersion and get rid of pretend allies who simply want to get their easy kills, but would also create Bounty jobs which means more dynamics to the game. This can not be difficult to do, but is something that should really be looked as otherwise being part of any power is literally pointless unless you are grinding for some bonuses or care for the ongoing soap opera between the star systems (which often make no sense).

This is just one of many times this has happened, but I can see why my friend is less and less inclined to play in Open as this type of behavior needs to be punished by Real Game Mechanics which is something sorely missed. We both want to play an multiplayer game with the danger of being killed by other players, but we want the mechanics which make the actions into something that adds up. His action in the solar system would have been different should he have seen that they were traitors or hostile forces. He definitely would not let them nicely align behind him for interdiction and he would have fought back or taken different actions based on the info given.

What do you guys think?

Here is an example I've made later in the Thread of how things should have played out if the game had basic Legal System Mechanics which are Even Based.

Example :

If the mechanics were working correctly this scenerio would have played something like this:

They attack allied member in home system of the power - The support forces of the Empire arrive rather fast as we are in the central system, so the player receives almost instant support if his beacon is on. Based on the reported ships in conflict the correct response is summoned. For 3 cutters I would see 3 or so Anacondas appearing. If they run away they get fined and a slap on a wrist with a small merit fine (10-50 merits). If they manage to proceed and kill the ally, they get kicked out of Power and receive a warning pop up that they are classed as traitors and their docking rights have been revoked in the systems of that power as well as Merit Bounty with Cash bounty being placed on their head. They can still dock in a stations if they "sneak in" in the same way one smuggles illegals, but if they get scanned they will be killed on sight. This will give them the feeling of danger they desire, bounty hunters job to do a decent protection to the pilot who was victim of the crime that these acts would be less likely to happen.
Further you are from the home system (frontier) less of the response can you expect. Weaker ships and longer response time. It should also alert all pilots of the given power that their ally is being attacked so again more player interaction is developed.

Honestly these are 101 game mechanics which are far from impossible as they are all event based and event programming is not that difficult to do. I develop software, so I know a bit about what I'm talking about. There are no mechanics currently which would evolve the game into a true Multiplayer experience (excluding Wings which sadly still misinstance to this day) and they are sorely missed and needed.

This would add Depth to Power play, increase player Interaction in a combat and non combat way as traders will have better protection and the whole system will feel more alive as well as see more players backing powers and wanting them to grow for some true benefit rather then just color on a map.

Please guys do comment and tell FD what would you like to see in terms of simple event based mechanics as these mechanics can turn this game from it's current stale state to something truly amazing without the need to create too much scripted "content". I really want this game to succeed hence this thread.

 

[Mohrgan]

You are referring to some concept of etiquette. It is abundantly clear that for many players there is none in open. I have been reminded uncountable times that if you log in open, you're ok being a potential target. My suggestion on how to find some is to start or join a private group that enforces a rule set you enjoy. That way, no one is disappointed.

 

[CMDR Dumbfries]

I agree. There should be some kind of consequence for killing a fellow player from the same power.
Kicked from the power and hunted for 30 days would be a good start.

 

[GJ51]

What's Power Play?

 

[Privata]

What's Power Play?

A term coined by a social politicit expert in the alliance and was then used years after to work out the power level of different men and women in the universe as a seperate thing to the major powers

 

[Kapow]

You are referring to some concept of etiquette. It is abundantly clear that for many players there is none in open. I have been reminded uncountable times that if you log in open, you're ok being a potential target. My suggestion on how to find some is to start or join a private group that enforces a rule set you enjoy. That way, no one is disappointed.

I see your point (partially), but I have to disagree as I wouldn't want Elite Dangerous turn into Elite my Safe Space - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

If there are consequences, these actions will make less common appearance. Just common Risk Versus Reward rules and the usual Carrot and Stick will do the job. All FD needs to do is allow players to demand justice and employ some basic laws which drive the realm and the consequences - Laws are not externally imposed rules, but rules enacted by players on players giving those who like PVP true tools to deal with those who are Naughty . This is standard game design 101 which should have been there from day one. Not as an expansion or later update as it drives the player interaction! I definately want open to stay open and with huge element of risk, but if there was any benefit to it I would now collect mates, wing up and go kill those traitors and turn it into a story while I claim my reward set by Empire, but instead I have no idea where they are and they had no consequences for their actions. This is plainly wrong from game design stand point.

PS We have both been playing mostly (90%) in Open and only when we mocked up and ended up without insurance money would we go to private in our weak moments.

 

[cmdr_Havalok]

I don't understand why you are blaming Power Play for other player's actions?

 

[Parmo]

ED is devoid of a game mechanic that could be reasonably viewed as 'crime and punishment'.
I do not foresee an introduction of any such justice system into ED.
The OP's remarks have been argued many times previously on these forums.
Powerplay is a sham and a facile, sterile attempt to bring 'life' to the ED universe.

 

[Kapow]

I don't understand why you are blaming Power Play for other player's actions?

Have you read the posts above? I'm not blaming the players as they did what was natural to them - they killed because that is what they wanted. I blame the mechanics as they make NO SENSE at all. That is the point of any game. Mechanics.
Some people will be pain in the *ss regardless what rules are imposed. It is just Human Nature, but if there are mechanics to "punish" them, hunt them down, give them the challenge they deserve then we will see them being more careful.

Example :

If the mechanics were working correctly this scenerio would have played something like this:

They attack allied member in home system of the power - The support forces of the Empire arrive rather fast as we are in the central system, so the player receives almost instant support if his beacon is on. Based on the reported ships in conflict the correct response is summened. For 3 cutters I would see 3 or so Anacondas appearing. If they run away they get fined and a slap on a wrist with a small merit fine (10-50 merits). If they manage to proceed and kill the ally, they get kicked out of Power and receive a warning pop up that they are classed as traiters and their docking rights have been revoked in the systems of that power as well as Merit Bounty with Cash bounty being placed on their head. They can still dock in a stations if they "sneak in" in the same way one smuggles illegals, but if they get scanned they will be killed on sight. This will give them the feeling of danger they desire, bounty hunters job to do a decent protection to the pilot who was victim of the crime that these acts would be less likely to happen.
Further you are from the home system (frontier) less of the response can you expect. Weaker ships and longer response time. It should also alert all pilots of the given power that their ally is being attacked so again more player interaction is developed.

Honestly these are 101 game mechanics which are far from impossible as they are all event based and event programming is not difficult to do. I develop software, so I know a bit about what I'm talking about. There are no mechanics currently which would evolve the game into a true Multiplayer experience (excluding Wings which sadly still misinstance to this day)

 

[Kapow]

Poll Added, so FD gets some opinions about this.

Mentioning that this has been discussed is fair, however as it hasn't been resolved to any level I feel that it is important to bring it up over and over, until Frontier takes note and hopefully applies some of the things people request beyond pictures next to the missions.

 

[metatheurgist]

DB said there would be no pointless PvP in his game. The first thing they did was throw that rule out with PP. That was the first of many mistakes with that game "design".

 

[rbridd]

This is the only part of the game I don't like.
While I'm not primarily a PvP player, I normally play in open and have held my own in a couple of PvP actions, when it was one on one.

Most of my PvP experience however, has been either
1) Pulled out of supercruise and destroyed by an overwhelmingly more powerful ship. (Conda vs Adder for heavens sake...)
2) Chased down and killed by a wing of overwhelmingly more powerful ships.

Frankly, I don't understand the motivation.
I realise that this is Elite Dangerous, and that the world is full of psychopaths who "play the way the game encourages them to".

But at present, the game has no realistic risk/reward mechanic for this type of PK.

Once... I was interdicted in my clipper by a FDL and a Vulture.
I tried to run, but it was clear I wasnt going to shake the FDL, so I turned to fight.
I managed somehow to quickly dispatch the Vulture, turned my attention to the FDL, and even though my shields were nearly gone, the FDL ran.
Still not quite sure how he managed to outdistance me, but my experience has been that these PK players really, really don't want a fair fight.

There needs to be some kind of in-game way of evening the odds, either with bounties or maybe a fast response police action.

If the feds can sniff out, follow and harass a player for smuggling, why not for PK?

<rant over>

 

[Mohrgan]

I see your point (partially), but I have to disagree as I wouldn't want Elite Dangerous turn into Elite my Safe Space - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

If there are consequences, these actions will make less common appearance. Just common Risk Versus Reward rules and the usual Carrot and Stick will do the job. All FD needs to do is allow players to demand justice and employ some basic laws which drive the realm and the consequences - Laws are not externally imposed rules, but rules enacted by players on players giving those who like PVP true tools to deal with those who are Naughty . This is standard game design 101 which should have been there from day one. Not as an expansion or later update as it drives the player interaction! I definately want open to stay open and with huge element of risk, but if there was any benefit to it I would now collect mates, wing up and go kill those traitors and turn it into a story while I claim my reward set by Empire, but instead I have no idea where they are and they had no consequences for their actions. This is plainly wrong from game design stand point.

PS We have both been playing mostly (90%) in Open and only when we mocked up and ended up without insurance money would we go to private in our weak moments.

Wishful thinking. This design 101 thing you drop so easily has never worked to maintain an environment that doesn't boil down to kill or be killed. Players just position themselves to accept the punishment. When you have so many credits, a fine becomes useless. When you don;t care about rank or standing what deterrent is there in loss of standing? After those tools are exhausted what is there to use? No, a better crime and punishment system will add color and substance to Elite but, it won't bring a vastly larger population to open.

The obvious choice is to create or join a PG that shares your interests.

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you kill members of your own power you get a merit penalty.

 

[Kapow]

Wishful thinking. This design 101 thing you drop so easily has never worked to maintain an environment that doesn't boil down to kill or be killed. Players just position themselves to accept the punishment. When you have so many credits, a fine becomes useless. When you don;t care about rank or standing what deterrent is there in loss of standing? After those tools are exhausted what is there to use? No, a better crime and punishment system will add color and substance to Elite but, it won't bring a vastly larger population to open.

The obvious choice is to create or join a PG that shares your interests.

I would tend to disagree. The game just has wrong Risk/Reward management. The first mistake was to allow people to earn more then they can "ever" (at the moment at least) spend while maintaining low risk/reward balance.

Insurance would have to change for this to work properly - Example - If you die deep in opposing powers area your insurance cost is 100% IE the cost of your ship (Unless it is death in Conflict Zone between two powers). If due to NPC support, Traitor label, inability to respawn in Hostile area, you end up loosing your 1 bill cutter you will soon change your play style as even the richest player would be out of cash in about a month. Would it affect the traders and the way they trade? Sure thing.

Simple Insurence layout to introduce risk -

Non Alligned players (those who do not partake in Power Play) -

insurance cost is 10% of the cost of a ship in Law abiding Non Conflict Areas (Conflict Areas are areas at war on Powerplay - this further adds to to need to watch what is happening in the universe and makes people think about where and how they fly.
Insurance cost of 20% in Powerplay Conflic Areas- When there is an attempt for expansions
Insurance cost of 30% in Lawless areas.
Insurence Cost of 100% for unprovocted attack unless it happens in Lawless area or Conflict Zone - This is due to the fact that insurance company will have enough proof about your actions from the Law respecting systems to decline your claim. It makes sense in real world, but for some reason isn't implemented in the game.

For Alligned Players -

Insurance cost of 5% in Alligned Systems,
Insurance Cost of 10% in Conflict Areas
Insurance cost of 20% in Lawless systems under the Power unless you have killed aligned player. This makes sense as the insurance companies are subsidized by the Powers in case of their pilots dying in their conflicts.
Insurance Cost of Treason, If you kill while aligned to the same power as your killing area and Law abiding system as well as if you are in a system beyond the Conflict Zones, - 100%

This still allows pirates to be pirates. As they will logically orientate towards Lawless system and Play the BGS to over throw the systems into chaos to get to pirate non alligned players in Lawless Systems as well as making it something to think about if to be aligned while a privateer or not. Traders will naturally trade more within their boarders.

If you had to rebuy your Ship each time for random killing without much though you would end up thinking about doing so as your money would deplete rather fast, especially if the NPC responses are fast in the hearts of the Powers as described above.

So to surmise. I believe that what this game urgently needs is proper justice and Risk/Reward system which is thought through and planned. This is the opposite of what some keep proposing in their vision of PVE only game as sadly with the NPCs being not so great at flying and the mission content being such a grind it won't be enough to keep many players entertained. if they create clever Player with Player and Player Versus Player mechanics they will have game that will grow stronger as people become more and more invested in their actions.

Lastly a Power Wide Chat for those who are aligned is urgently needed

REQUEST TO MODS _ Could you please change the Thread Name to: Justice System and New Powerplay Mechanics Proposal? Many Thanks

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If you kill members of your own power you get a merit penalty.

Yeah the 5 or 10 merit loss is pointless against those who join the power just to kill senselessly. Hence the above ideas

 

[Kapow]

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Further on - with further patches concentrating on the risk/reward mechanics could be expanded more by adding Market Connections - Prices for Weapons and military as well as foods and medical will rise in the sectors of Conflict between powers. Missions generated with pretty much the same text but purpose linking to these events. All this would work towards making the game feel persistent and make more sense. It will give players purpose and will decrease the senseless crimes which are happening at the moment. So much more that could be done...

 

[Gedemon]

voted "Better Justice System not linked to Power Play" because that's needed anyway and PP makes no sense at all in all levels, it has only two qualities:
- create player interaction (even if it's mostly PvP)
- is not mandatory

I want PP to be completely removed and rebuild from scratch to blend naturally with the BGS, then no need to adapt the justice system to it, it should be the other way (PP adapted to the justice system)

 

[Phantasma]

I have to agree with some others here, the underlying problem is that System Security is almost meaningless in this game.
If there were regions with more rules and a more reliable law enforcement, but at the same time anarchies/fringe worlds without rules but REAL incentives to go there, it would make much more sense and would be more fun for everyone, the law abiding AND the outlaw folks.

Right now it's just the worst of both worlds.
Murder means almost nothing while IE loitering is an immediate death sentence.
And the attacker doesn't feel much satisfaction either, because every system is so samey, their prey can just high wake and trade/mine/whatever in thousands of other places.
So they just hunt needles in a haystack instead of lurking in juicy but risky places.


Edit: Oh yes, and Powerplay, that sorry old mess.
The whole thing is inconsistent and half-baked on so many levels, doesn't gel mechanically nor thematically into the rest of the game and just feels tacked on (because it was and still is).
By now i couldn't even come up with a creative way to save it without reworking it from the ground up... which, given its visible decline in popularity won't happen anyway.
Guess it will slowly wither away unless a major miracle is in the works.
Personally i don't care but i feel for every player that invested time and energy into it.

 

[Abomination]

Voted "Better Justice System not linked to Power Play " assuming these rules will apply to the whole game, including PP.
Although another layer of justice rules on top of PP as an extra addition wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[Kapow]

I think that it is clear that the current justice system doesn't work from the poll. Only one lost soul ( Possibly FD game designer ) thinks that the current system is ok..

I also understand why a lot of people are voting for justice overhaul without involving PP as PP is a terrible stick on feature at the moment and basically just a mindless grind with bugs and no real aim to it. What my idea proposed earlier was meant to do was include the PP a bit more in the universe, tie it to the system in game and actually give it purpose, but sadly I'm starting to think that I'm dreaming.

It is funny that we have a MMO (sort of ) game where player with player interaction is not supported by devs by design in any way proper way. If there was a deeper justice system with proper Risk Reward setup as well as the option to create contracts for other players to take on, we would see more and more people coming to Open as they would be able to hire a wingman to help them fly with their cargo, Bounty hunter to punish the one who killed them, safer or more dangerous systems following some logic (instead of the mess it is now) and so much more. All of this would be Event based, so there is little to no reason not to have unless it is unwanted by design. And yes this includes corporations or some way to ingame join a minor/major faction.... The player with player interaction would improve as well as the Player vs Player interaction will evolve to something more then just meaningless murder and the sun would be shining upon Elite Dangerous as Players would actually create content rather then play through RNG created stuff (I really can't call it missions as they make no sense).

At times I feel that FD doesn't want us to play together, but wants us to play only against (not really with) their environment which is simply fighting against or with a nonsensical Random Number Generator which makes no sense and will get boring within few hours of gameplay to any person who demands intelligent game play. I've spend around 200h in the game (yes beating myself over my head for wasting so much time while hoping for change, but believe and hope can be a strong driver), ranking my pilot up and hoping for serious improvements in the game mechanics. I don't want to see more gimmicky features, but real mechanics that will improve the game.


PS THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD. I was getting worried that I was the only one who expected more from this game on this forum..