Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted!

Zac Antonaci

Head of Communications
Frontier
Hey everyone,

People are always asking for more information from devs and to get an insight into their thoughts about the game.

So it’s welcome news that Sandro Sammarco, Lead Designer, volunteered to go through a few ideas that are being considered at the moment in Powerplay and get your feedback! In addition there is also some detail on how merit decay works as that’s also been a pretty hot topic.

So grab a drink, have a read and gives us your thoughts. :)

Disclaimer: Please remember that these are just ideas and concepts and we can’t promise that they will make their way into the live game.

Enjoy!

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Currently to stop a single power from expanding indefinitely, as well as an increasing cost based on distance from a power’s home system, we use an expansion overhead. Put simply, the more systems a power holds sway over, the more expensive its control systems are to maintain.

Seeing this in action, with live volumes of player activity, we feel that this overhead may be too potent in restricting expansion. The “brick wall” it’s creating, stopping powers expanding is occurring a little too soon.

With this in mind, we’re investigating ways to remove the hard wall to expansion by potentially changing the overhead algorithm so that as long as a certain (potentially large amount) of fortification is a achieved the power can continue to expand unless it has made some very bad expansion choices. We’d still hopefully get our expansion slow down, as more and more fortification (more player effort) would be required to keep expanding.

On a somewhat related note, we’re also considering the concept of introducing a “collapse” state for systems that are undermined massively. It *could* be something like: if you undermine more than a thousand percent (for example) more than the fortification carried out, the system enters collapse. Repeating this feat on a system already collapsing would cause it to revolt and become a free agent, even if its controlling power was not running a CC deficit.

We think that this ability could do a few nice things. Firstly, it would offer commanders the ability to directly choose flashpoint conflicts and offer clear, tangible results. Secondly, it might encourage much more interaction between the powers, and potentially commanders – something we really want. Thirdly, it would give meaning to over fortifying and undermining, creating interesting dilemmas, even out of otherwise unintentional effort by commanders simply seeking merits. Thirdly, it would create “open-ended” races meaning that fortification and undermining where always potentially useful. Finally, it might open up interesting dynamics in terms of expansion; if a system revolted through collapse, it would then be available for any power to prepare.

It’s important to stress that these are just some ideas we’re considering, nothing is set in stone and nothing is necessarily going to happen in the immediate future. But they seem interesting enough ideas to use that we feel it would be good to share them with you folk.

I’ve also just been asked to clarify how merit decay is supposed to work. Before I start, I want to point out that we’ve just discovered a potential quirk in the system which could have been giving some odd results, causing some of the confusion about this mechanic! Hopefully we’ll be identifying (and banishing) this gremlin if tracked down – keep a weather eye for updates.

So, here’s how merit decay should work, using an example of you being a Commander newly pledged to a power, who will be earning 10 merits per cycle from activities completed in each cycle:

At the end of the first cycle, you will have earned 10 merits. These merits are used to determine your Rating for the next cycle.

At the end of the second cycle, still assuming that you’re earning 10 merits for tasks each cycle, you’ll have 10 merits from activities in cycle two, and the merits you earned in cycle one will be added again, only at half value, meaning that you’d have a total of 15 merits (10 from cycle two and 10/2 from cycle one) used to determine you rating for the next cycle.

At the end of cycle three, you would be earning merits from activities from that cycle, plus merits earned from cycle two at half value, and merits from cycle one at a quarter value.

So if you earned 10 merits per cycle, in cycle three you would have 17.5 merits (10 from cycle three, 10/2 from cycle two and 10/4 from cycle one).

This trend continues; in its fourth cycle, merits are still awarded, only at an eighth of their original value. So, in our example, with 10 merits being earned each cycle, at the end of cycle four the merit total would be 18.75 (10 from cycle four, 10/2 from cycle three, 10/4 from cycle two and 10/8 from cycle one).

Merits are completely removed from your total on their fifth cycle, so in our example, merits earned from cycle one would be completely removed from cycle four, leaving us the same total of 18.75 (10 from cycle five, 10/2 from cycle four, 10/4 from cycle three, 10/8 from cycle two and zero from cycle one, as these merits have been removed).

The bug we suspect might exist would mean that the merit total isn’t being halved (or not always halved) on cycle two of its life span, instead being added again at full value. On cycle three it is being halved and on cycle four it is being quartered. It is still being completely removed on cycle five.

The upshot of this is that Commanders could be earning more merits than they should be: not the end of the world, but as clearly noticed, inconsistent and potentially confusing, it’s something we’re investigating.
 
It's nice to see the 'brick wall' being looked at.

My question is this Sandro:

Is the upkeep a function of distance? If so, it would make sense, rather than expanding, to have a solid core of CC systems, before expansion occurs. There are many systems that are low interest due to income...but, if they were close to HQ, their upkeep should be minimal. Thus owning a large number of systems to form a core and solid foundation would allow for Powers to expand. If this is the way it works...then I suggest waiting until the meta catches up to the rules, rather than changing the rules to match the meta.

If the problem is how far a HQ can spread its influence and it appears it's not far enough...then by all means...loosen the ropes and let the Powers breathe more.
 
So grab a drink, have a read and gives us your thoughts. :)

Immediate thought is: please stop posting these big "starting a discussion" threads on Friday afternoon. The last one was the criminality update. It was also posted on a Friday afternoon, received a few responses from Sandro, then died a death as far as dev involvement was concerned. Anyway...

With this in mind, we’re investigating ways to remove the hard wall to expansion by potentially changing the overhead algorithm so that as long as a certain (potentially large amount) of fortification is a achieved the power can continue to expand unless it has made some very bad expansion choices. We’d still hopefully get our expansion slow down, as more and more fortification (more player effort) would be required to keep expanding.

Okay given that it's Monday morning I thought I'd rewrite my original response to provide some details on what happened with Lavigny-Duval over the past few cycles and use it to suggest how things could be different.

Lavigny-Duval was in a great position when it started out. It had a good combination of both a large number of players and intelligent leaders who spent a lot of time and effort scoping out the best systems for expansion.

When overheads were first made visible we quickly realised that there were going to be issues with it. Once we had the rough calculation for overheads we came to the conclusion that there was no way to stop turmoil, although we could slow it down by selecting the "worst" control systems in to which to expand in our preparation cycle. By worst, I mean those with the fewest systems that would end up exploited so that we could keep our overheads down.

Because of the preparation->expansion system we had a 1 cycle lag on this and ended up expanding in to too many "good" systems and tipping in to turmoil. We're trying to fortify everything to reduce our CC, but expansion is carrying on regardless so next cycle we'll be thousands of CC short and the whole thing will be a complete mess.

So, what could have been changed in the Powerplay minigame to make it easier for larger powers to control? I'm not going to suggest anything that would be a major re-write of Powerplay, although there are many many good suggestions that will make the game better. A few things that I'm hoping are within scope:

  • Give us some ability to steer preparation. Players have been given vote nominations: let them use them to vote for preparation targets for the next cycle, resulting in a static list for the next cycle rather than the current free-for-all. This isn't massively better than the existing mob rule, but at least creates some certainty over preparation targets. As part of this, allow some ability to vote for "no preparation" or "focus on fortification" so that powers that approach the wall can focus their players on fortification of existing systems rather than preparation of new systems
  • Don't allow obviously self-destructive expansion. Possibly use the same mechanism as above, possibly just disallow the expansion at the end of the cycle, but something needs to be done to stop this obvious silliness
  • Allow us to reduce overheads. One way to do this would be passively, where the longer a system is under a power's control the lower the overheads are. Another is actively, as you have touched above, where for example successfully fortifying a control system permanently reduces the overheads from that system (for example, removing the equivalent of half a system from the overheads calculation). This needs to be per-control system and a permanent effect, otherwise all it does is move the wall rather than give powers a way around it

I recognise that you want to make it harder and harder for larger powers to expand, and I suspect that the reduction of overheads as above could do so with an appropriate multiplier, but you also need to stop the players with no interest in anything other than their own merit count from being able to wreck the efforts of the players who are attempting to steer their power, especially as they enter the stage where turmoil becomes a danger.
 
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Might I suggest introducing another Power rank between the current ranks 4 and 5? The gaps between them in merit requirements and rewards make the progression rether wonky, not to mention it suffers from the issue of the player's progression rate abruptly turning into a grind with nothing to show for it from 1500 to 10000 merits. I'd suggest a rank at around 5-6000 merits with a 35 power commodity allowance, 25 million credit bonus and 15 nominations.
 
...
On a somewhat related note, we’re also considering the concept of introducing a “collapse” state for systems that are undermined massively. It *could* be something like: if you undermine more than a thousand percent (for example) more than the fortification carried out, the system enters collapse. Repeating this feat on a system already collapsing would cause it to revolt and become a free agent, even if its controlling power was not running a CC deficit.

We think that this ability could do a few nice things. Firstly, it would offer commanders the ability to directly choose flashpoint conflicts and offer clear, tangible results. Secondly, it might encourage much more interaction between the powers, and potentially commanders – something we really want...r


This is something I personally consider as not so good idea for the simple reason - powers with more players will become even more powerful. In theory, current state of preparation/expansion is that power with more players will get more with less effort, depending on the actual power size. In opposite, smaller power with less players can do their best, but they will get less, if there are opposite players of bigger powers (even 5th column group may ruin whole effort in small powers). With possibility of collapse state this disparity will be even bigger. Simply bigger powers may effectively collapse many systems of smaller power while still expanding that way (and in opposite smaller powers will just defend or won't be able to do anything with it).

It's logical, of course - bigger power wins more easily. But it is fun and "fair" for the smaller powers? I don't think so. ;)
 
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And while we have your attention:


  • Although there is no preparation ability for ALD this cycle you can still pick up preparation items from control systems. This shouldn't be possible
  • As upkeep is a function of distance from HQ is there any way in which you would consider allowing a power to move its HQ?
  • It would be nice for powers to have different statuses to each other rather than the current 'hostile' or not. There are two options here: either the powers just do their thing, or some sort of player-led voting system is put in to place. The former fits more with the idea of you working for a power rather than having any real say in what goes on, but the latter is closer to the reality of how the game is played
  • For the love of Pete please fix it so that killing hostile targets in your own control systems gives you merits. And ditto for hostile PC kills anywhere in space
 
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Would this be counterable with fortification or not? And is there any real reason for you to introduce this at this stage in the game? Turmoil is real and happening right now, but I would suggest that you focus on fixing the immediate issues rather than attempt to introduce more moving parts to the game.

I think you misread, or I'm misreading you. The mechanic he described was "if you undermine more than a thousand percent (for example) more than the fortification carried out, the system enters collapse."

Surely that is by definition countered by fortification?

"More than the fortification carried out" - the suggested mechanic is that if the undermining of a control system gigantically exceeds the fortification done on it (1000%) then it enters collapse. It's explicitly stated as relative to the amount of fortification done - so if you fortify to the same level as the undermine, no collapse can take place. So he already answered that when he explained the mechanic.

Or do you mean something else?
 
I don't understand why you guys don't address or respond to the many posts out there about players' current issues with PP, instead of talking about something that is lower on the priority list in terms of player feedback. Most players are asking for things to help reduce grind but you're proposing a change that will only increase it.

And as far as encouraging more player interaction, based on posts we are already seeing that many players are doing PP tasks in solo or private group to avoid just that. Are you guys keeping metrics on % breakdown of PP activities performed by gameplay mode?
 
Does that mean that rating 5 is unprofitable by default and need more money by fast-tracking by design?
 
I think you misread, or I'm misreading you. The mechanic he described was "if you undermine more than a thousand percent (for example) more than the fortification carried out, the system enters collapse."
Surely that is by definition countered by fortification?

Yeah I missed the second part of it; thanks for pointing it out.
 
Heh, i predicted that the most popular powers would hit a brick wall back in beta testing.... was so happy to see it happen. Interesting to note that FD think it has happened to early, perhaps it does need changing, but i loved the reactions of some of the power supporters when it happened to Duval. I noted some saw it coming and were trying to hold back everyone else, but of course, that is like herding cats with such a diverse community.

Loving this aspect of powerplay.
 
So, here’s how merit decay should work, using an example of you being a Commander newly pledged to a power, who will be earning 10 merits per cycle from activities completed in each cycle:

At the end of the first cycle, you will have earned 10 merits. These merits are used to determine your Rating for the next cycle.

At the end of the second cycle, still assuming that you’re earning 10 merits for tasks each cycle, you’ll have 10 merits from activities in cycle two, and the merits you earned in cycle one will be added again, only at half value, meaning that you’d have a total of 15 merits (10 from cycle two and 10/2 from cycle one) used to determine you rating for the next cycle.

At the end of cycle three, you would be earning merits from activities from that cycle, plus merits earned from cycle two at half value, and merits from cycle one at a quarter value.

So if you earned 10 merits per cycle, in cycle three you would have 17.5 merits (10 from cycle three, 10/2 from cycle two and 10/4 from cycle one).

This trend continues; in its fourth cycle, merits are still awarded, only at an eighth of their original value. So, in our example, with 10 merits being earned each cycle, at the end of cycle four the merit total would be 18.75 (10 from cycle four, 10/2 from cycle three, 10/4 from cycle two and 10/8 from cycle one).

Merits are completely removed from your total on their fifth cycle, so in our example, merits earned from cycle one would be completely removed from cycle four, leaving us the same total of 18.75 (10 from cycle five, 10/2 from cycle four, 10/4 from cycle three, 10/8 from cycle two and zero from cycle one, as these merits have been removed).

The bug we suspect might exist would mean that the merit total isn’t being halved (or not always halved) on cycle two of its life span, instead being added again at full value. On cycle three it is being halved and on cycle four it is being quartered. It is still being completely removed on cycle five.

The upshot of this is that Commanders could be earning more merits than they should be: not the end of the world, but as clearly noticed, inconsistent and potentially confusing, it’s something we’re investigating.

If I get this right, this means we should be receiving Merits at the end of a cycle on top of those we get during the cycle (for delivering documents etc.)? Or do these "10 merits at the end of a cycle" refer to those we get for our activities during the cycle? Because if the latter version is correct, something is seriously wrong with the system: since we are awarded the merits for errand runs immediately after finishing the individual missions, reducing the number of merits afterwards, at the end of the cycle, is immensely frustrating.
 
My feedback on Power Play Merit earnings by the three main Professions:

Trade:

Works fine. I don't really see any major changes are needed. A trading player can work their trade routes around the various Power Play commodities. They can also use the profits to increase their Power Play commodity allotment.

Merit earning potential:
Good

Credit earning potential:
Good

Combat:

This is the area that needs the most work. I feel that combat should be one of the best ways to earn merits. Power Play desperately needs combat missions. i.e attack/defend outpost/station, spy on enemy Power ships, destroy enemy Power ships, etc.

Merit earning potential:
Okay

Credit earning potential:
Abysmal

Exploration:

None existent. The fix to this one is painfully obvious. One system scanned equals one merit. Simple. You would need to sell the exploration data at your Powers HQ to add a little risk of being interdicted by a hostile Power.

Merit earning potential:
None

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Also, I think Expansion commodity allotment should be cut from 10 to 5. Expansion needs to be the worst way to gain merits to stop expansion into low earning systems.
 
On a somewhat related note, we’re also considering the concept of introducing a “collapse” state for systems that are undermined massively. It *could* be something like: if you undermine more than a thousand percent (for example) more than the fortification carried out, the system enters collapse. Repeating this feat on a system already collapsing would cause it to revolt and become a free agent, even if its controlling power was not running a CC deficit.

We think that this ability could do a few nice things. Firstly, it would offer commanders the ability to directly choose flashpoint conflicts and offer clear, tangible results. Secondly, it might encourage much more interaction between the powers, and potentially commanders – something we really want. Thirdly, it would give meaning to over fortifying and undermining, creating interesting dilemmas, even out of otherwise unintentional effort by commanders simply seeking merits. Thirdly, it would create “open-ended” races meaning that fortification and undermining where always potentially useful. Finally, it might open up interesting dynamics in terms of expansion; if a system revolted through collapse, it would then be available for any power to prepare.
Ah good, you spotted the flaw with "100%+ fortify cancels 100%+ undermine, and vice versa" meaning that it's difficult to cause a Power to contract as, assuming they have enough players paying attention, it would be impossible to actually Undermine them and cause loss of a Control system due to insufficient CC.

The proposed change certainly sounds like something to try to solve this issue, but why not simply have Fortify/Undermine work in the same way as multiply Prepared systems, or those in Expansion? Once past 100% on both then the highest numerically 'wins', possibly with some minimum lead for it to count.
 
My question about pp is this.

If you pledged for a power and get to lvl 5 rating (good luck) you then go exploring for a while in deep space. (say 1 - 2 months)

When you get back, would the rating have dropped back down to rating 1?
 
...Merits are completely removed from your total on their fifth cycle, so in our example, merits earned from cycle one would be completely removed from cycle four, leaving us the same total of 18.75 (10 from cycle five, 10/2 from cycle four, 10/4 from cycle three, 10/8 from cycle two and zero from cycle one, as these merits have been removed)...
Thanks for the confirmation of what seemed evident from the original PP documentation.
Hopefully this will be the end of all those "you only need 1350 merits per week to maintain rank 5" postulations. :)
 
Great to see some explanation and info but just a small winge...

Any chance you can leave a line space between paragraphs, wall of text on a screen is hard work
You probably know, being as it's your forum, use font size 2 and line spacing is preserved :)
 
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