Powerplay player factions is a bad idea.

[SkipRat]

Whomsoever came up with the idea of allowing player factions to take part in Powerplay, seriously needs to think about his position. More and more, this game is becoming more like eve online, and less and less about the personal player who would like to blaze their own trail and ultimately what spirit of elite has been about throughout it’s history. Yes, you can point out that you don't have to become a part of the groups and/or powerplay the problem being the incentive to do. It has rapidly become more about the groups contained within powerplay and their advancement than the individual, this is particularly the case when trying to develop a minor faction.

A good example of this in action is how a minor play faction can get their own system or systems exploited and then controlled by another player faction within the Powerplay rules, with absolutely no way of removing the powerplay faction or the player group from the exploitation of the faction involved. What this will led to ultimately are situations where players from a specific minor faction or other major private groups are forced to withdraw from open play and just play within the solo/private group mode of the game, just to get into their own systems thanks to the way Frontier have programmed Powerplay into the game, and the way players have behaved towards other players not involved in Powerplay.

I believe that what Frontier are doing in this situation is pandering to the lowest denominator rather than keeping a certain amount of intelligence within the game. This has been evident with previous issues such as the reduction of power in missiles, or nerfed as the gaming community would say, due to people refusing to use point defence systems to protect themselves. You said when you started making the game it was the game David Braben wanted, but it seems to me to becoming more and more the game the groups want and less the game that you set out to make in the first place. I think this is ultimately damaging to the game both now and in the long run. We are for the most part intelligent gamers who would like to play an intelligent game where we use logic throughout our gameplay. Rather than dumbing down and making it just like every other game out on the market today.

 

[Deadspin]

1: To participate in / back a minor faction, there is absolutely zero need to be involved in power play.
2: Taking another player groups system is not a power play function. It is a matter of BGS manipulation through missions and other criteria and is able to be done by everyone involved. Moving between solo/pg/open does not change this.
3: It is entirely possible to work against a power play faction moving into the same system as a player supported minor faction (inserted by FDev or original, it matters not) without participating in power play. Succeeding at blocking their attempt is an entirely different story. The only thing that changes (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that the system continues on under the patronage of said power. The factions remain. * & **
4: You can play this game, in open, private group or solo, without ever participating in power play. Power play modules provide very little incentive or bonus to gameplay. (IE: My FAS still kills a completely PP (shields/weapons) equipped Python just as well as any other ship).
5: Frontier is not pandering as the ability to raise a player created (read: Fdev inserted) or existing minor faction to a "Power" position has been advertised since day 1 of power play.
6: This is not EVE 2.0 in the slightest.
- You cannot join any faction except for a power play faction.
- You cannot stop another player from entering a system no matter what you do.
- Anyone can join a power, it is not inclusive or gated behind an request.
7: Missiles are being re-buffed (though if they will be back to their beta/gamma levels, we may never know).

* The Diamond Frogs, originally known as the Revolutionary Jotunheim Resistance (RJR), left their original system due to FDev dumping PP patronage onto it from a power we did not support and it was deep enough into said power's envelope that it was useless to attempt to dig it out.

** Other player supported factions in-game have defeated expansion attempts by powers into their system through BGS-like tactics without actively being involved in pledging to a power.

Your "good example" would happen with or without powerplay if a more capable player group expanded into your system and then decided that they were going to take it from you.

 

[Listeri69]

I think the biggest point made here by both posters is the asterisked point by Deadspin...

* The Diamond Frogs, originally known as the Revolutionary Jotunheim Resistance (RJR), left their original system due to FDev dumping PP patronage onto it from a power we did not support and it was deep enough into said power's envelope that it was useless to attempt to dig it out.

This is a point I feel the original poster was trying to make.

So for example if your system says Exploited by Felicia Winters. there is no way to remove that exploitation other than to join powerplay, and if you do join powerplay you need a large enough group to do all the actions required to get rid of the exploitee faction. The problem therein is that there is no recourse to make the system 'unexploited' and returned to a neutral state, you can however change the power in charge, but doing any of this on your own within the powerplay rules is nigh on impossible.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

So for example if your system says Exploited by Felicia Winters. there is no way to remove that exploitation other than to join powerplay, and if you do join powerplay you need a large enough group to do all the actions required to get rid of the exploitee faction. The problem therein is that there is no recourse to make the system 'unexploited' and returned to a neutral state, you can however change the power in charge, but doing any of this on your own within the powerplay rules is nigh on impossible.

Doesn't that fit into the whole "small individual pilot experience" thing? Not being able to twist the workings of galactic geopolitics to your whim?

Also, why are minor factions somehow supposed to be able to be controlled by players, but PP factions are "against the spirit of Elite" if they are?

 

[Privata]

We all blaze our trail , some have a brighter and bigger trail than others. and thats the way it should be.

I kind of hope elite become eve with gameplay to be honest

 

[Bacalao]

I think the biggest point made here by both posters is the asterisked point by Deadspin...* The Diamond Frogs, originally known as the Revolutionary Jotunheim Resistance (RJR), left their original system due to FDev dumping PP patronage onto it from a power we did not support and it was deep enough into said power's envelope that it was useless to attempt to dig it out.This is a point I feel the original poster was trying to make. So for example if your system says Exploited by Felicia Winters. there is no way to remove that exploitation other than to join powerplay, and if you do join powerplay you need a large enough group to do all the actions required to get rid of the exploitee faction. The problem therein is that there is no recourse to make the system 'unexploited' and returned to a neutral state, you can however change the power in charge, but doing any of this on your own within the powerplay rules is nigh on impossible.

I think that along with (or shortly after) minor faction promotion to powers (player or otherwise) there will also be independent resistance to powers implemented, it's been mentioned several times since 1.3 launched that it would come along eventually. The other thing to consider is that there is no difference between a minor faction and a "player owned" minor faction except that one was named by FDev and the other by a group of players. Functionally they are the same. Because players have no direct control over in game assets other than their own ships (and only 1 ship per player), long may it stay that way, there is no need to raise false alarms over Elite becoming anything like an Eve clone. Powerplay allows players that want to interact in higher level, large scale territory conflicts to do so, the same way that individual players can do so on a small scale via the BGS but it gives them no more control than any other individual player beyond cooperation with other individual players which could only be avoided entirely by making Elite a single player game. Which it isn't.

 

[lefty1117]

I wouldn't mind seeing a few more EVE style gameplay especially around trading and crafting, but if not then so be it. On the player faction rejecting PP front, I thought FD commented that they were looking into a freedom fighting mechanic where a local faction could throw off the PP yoke.

 

[Deadspin]

I think the biggest point made here by both posters is the asterisked point by Deadspin...

* The Diamond Frogs, originally known as the Revolutionary Jotunheim Resistance (RJR), left their original system due to FDev dumping PP patronage onto it from a power we did not support and it was deep enough into said power's envelope that it was useless to attempt to dig it out.

This is a point I feel the original poster was trying to make.

So for example if your system says Exploited by Felicia Winters. there is no way to remove that exploitation other than to join powerplay, and if you do join powerplay you need a large enough group to do all the actions required to get rid of the exploitee faction. The problem therein is that there is no recourse to make the system 'unexploited' and returned to a neutral state, you can however change the power in charge, but doing any of this on your own within the powerplay rules is nigh on impossible.

That was when FDev initially introduced PP though. If you're an outlier with no PP influence in your system at all you can fight said expansion and potentially defeat it if your system isn't actually the focus of the player groups that push to help the existing Powers. Even if one expands into your system you can effectively work against it. DF moved because FDev overlayed a power onto us and it turned out that our system ended up pretty deep within that power's influence. By ourselves we'd have never gotten out of it.

If you chose to back a faction already deep within the influence of a power, well that's your own problem (unless like us, you existed there first). Then I'll just pour another shot for ya because I know that pain.

OP made it sound like there was nothing to be done against powers.

 

[SkipRat]

I think the biggest point made here by both posters is the asterisked point by Deadspin...

* The Diamond Frogs, originally known as the Revolutionary Jotunheim Resistance (RJR), left their original system due to FDev dumping PP patronage onto it from a power we did not support and it was deep enough into said power's envelope that it was useless to attempt to dig it out.

This is a point I feel the original poster was trying to make.

So for example if your system says Exploited by Felicia Winters. there is no way to remove that exploitation other than to join powerplay, and if you do join powerplay you need a large enough group to do all the actions required to get rid of the exploitee faction. The problem therein is that there is no recourse to make the system 'unexploited' and returned to a neutral state, you can however change the power in charge, but doing any of this on your own within the powerplay rules is nigh on impossible.

Exactly.

Not to mention that the Diamond Frogs requested that a group of certain PPFaction not expand into their or a near by system system as they wished to remain outside of Powerplay.

I have just been contacted by a member of the Diamond Frogs, who wish to remain outside Powerplay.
Message:

---

I am representing the Diamond Frogs and letting you know that the potential expansion into FS 34 would put our home system inside the exploitation bubble of your power. We prefer to have our home system outside all PP bubbles and remain totally independent.

---

So although we are going for Anouphis, bear this in mind later in the cycle. Utopia respects independent player groups and so do not expand FS 34. If you see opposition here, its due to the group in residence opposing us.
Check them out (cheers to Ben for the links):

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteAntal/comments/4eqjk4/do_not_expand_fs_34_diamond_frogs/

So it is a bit hypocritical to ask this power not expand into a certain system as they didn't want their "Home System" to involved in a Powerplay bubble, but now they are going to be a group in Powerplay it suddenly becomes different when it comes to other minor factions.

 

[Deadspin]

I think that along with (or shortly after) minor faction promotion to powers (player or otherwise) there will also be independent resistance to powers implemented, it's been mentioned several times since 1.3 launched that it would come along eventually. The other thing to consider is that there is no difference between a minor faction and a "player owned" minor faction except that one was named by FDev and the other by a group of players. Functionally they are the same. Because players have no direct control over in game assets other than their own ships (and only 1 ship per player), long may it stay that way, there is no need to raise false alarms over Elite becoming anything like an Eve clone. Powerplay allows players that want to interact in higher level, large scale territory conflicts to do so, the same way that individual players can do so on a small scale via the BGS but it gives them no more control than any other individual player beyond cooperation with other individual players which could only be avoided entirely by making Elite a single player game. Which it isn't.

Written far better than I could. Thank you.

 

[Jypson]

We all blaze our trail , some have a brighter and bigger trail than others. and thats the way it should be.

I kind of hope elite become eve with gameplay to be honest

I kind of hope Elite becomes Skyrim in space!

 

[thorn-]

Whomsoever came up with the idea of allowing player factions to take part in Powerplay, seriously needs to think about his position.

Allowing player factions to exist actually makes the game stronger in a community sense, and less of a pointless NPC/BGS loop of nothingness.

I believe that what Frontier are doing in this situation is pandering to the lowest denominator rather than keeping a certain amount of intelligence within the game.

The lowest denominator would be the solo-playing individual, who wants as little interaction with the player populated universe as possible.

You said when you started making the game it was the game David Braben wanted, but it seems to me to becoming more and more the game the groups want and less the game that you set out to make in the first place.

What Braben wants isn't always what the game players want. He has good ideas and bad ideas, just like any other game developer.

Listening to the playerbase and modifying the original plan in sensible, fun, productive ways is a good thing.

 

[Deadspin]

So it is a bit hypocritical to ask this power not expand into a certain system as they didn't want their "Home System" to involved in a Powerplay bubble, but now they are going to be a group in Powerplay it suddenly becomes different when it comes to other minor factions.

Thanks for handing us the win.

FDev hasn't stated where a power will be placed once the competition has decided who the winner is. Aren't you jumping the gun a bit assuming that we'll crush your system/anyone elses system?

Someone with more PP experience answer this for me: If a power expands into your system does it change the local factions immediately or is said system just now residing within the sphere of influence for said power?

If it doesn't mess with the factions then, Skiprat, please explain to me the issue. (Note: I wasn't a part of the decision to ask Antal's PP Group not to push in our direction. I don't pay much attention to those things, we have other frogs for that)

 

[Jypson]

Allowing player factions to exist actually makes the game stronger in a community sense, and less of a pointless NPC/BGS loop of nothingness.



The lowest denominator would be the solo-playing individual, who wants as little interaction with the player populated universe as possible.



What Braben wants isn't always what the game players want. He has good ideas and bad ideas, just like any other game developer.

Listening to the playerbase and modifying the original plan in sensible, fun, productive ways is a good thing.

> Wouldn't the lowest common denominator be the smallest fraction of players? Only FDev has the answer to that, all we can do is speculate.

 

[SkipRat]

Allowing player factions to exist actually makes the game stronger in a community sense, and less of a pointless NPC/BGS loop of nothingness.


The lowest denominator would be the solo-playing individual, who wants as little interaction with the player populated universe as possible.


What Braben wants isn't always what the game players want. He has good ideas and bad ideas, just like any other game developer.

Listening to the playerbase and modifying the original plan in sensible, fun, productive ways is a good thing.

Actually no, the game will be geared towards pandering to ones ego, rather than developing a game all can enjoy in their own way.

Yes, yes it is Braben's Game, it is his vision and his dream, you are paying to share that dream with him. Not cry every time a game development choice doesn't go your way. Just like nerfing missiles because people refused to use point defence systems to protect them selves.

Secondly, that is not the lowest denominator I am referring too

 

[Privata]

I kind of hope Elite becomes Skyrim in space!

Skyrim in space , they both have freedom and good lore.
Even as an over the top ES fan I would say elite offers more freedom to live out your life (however with mods skyrim does become a good life sim)

 

[Deadspin]

The arrogance of this post.

Yes, yes it is Braben's Game, it is his vision and his dream, you are paying to share that dream with him. Not cry every time a game development choice doesn't go your way then cry like babies.
Secondly, that is not the lowest denominator I am referring too

Hey pot, this is kettle..

 

[smiths121]

When a Power expands into a system the system expanded into gets "controlled by" and the systems within the control bubble 15LY become exploited.

Back in 1.3 days we struggled with huge influence swings due to PP and we were only exploited. Come 1.4 though things calmed down - you could see launch day on the graphs. So in general, other than more traffic in the systems which makes BGS less predictable there is no short term affect. Most Powers now have dedicated teams that look at trigger values and the planets in a bubble and set to work on the BGS to change controlling minor factions in systems. This is where you can or should compete with the power. We were quite lucky being Fed Corporate, the Alliance guys left us alone as the corporate suited them and we did not rock the boat too much.

Some players and player groups do not want to be in the PP bubble for stylistic reasons though. All I can say is I hope the freedom fighter role gets implemented soon, this at least turns someone's dislike into content.

Simon

 

[Jypson]

Skyrim in space , they both have freedom and good lore.
Even as an over the top ES fan I would say elite offers more freedom to live out your life (however with mods skyrim does become a good life sim)

Mods my good man; mods are what I desire most above all in most cases. Unfortunately that will never happen in Elite, but a man can dream....a man can dream. [zZzZz]

 

[SkipRat]

Skyrim in space , they both have freedom and good lore.
Even as an over the top ES fan I would say elite offers more freedom to live out your life (however with mods skyrim does become a good life sim)

Suitable, seeing as the game is being seriously dumbed down for the lowest denominator.