Powerplay Preparation Sabotage in PowerPlay

[fergal]

I know starting a thread on the weekend greatly reduces the nearly 0% chance that a dev will make a comment, but here goes anyway.

The preparation systems in powerplay is open to exploitation.

Pictures speak louder than words (I'll add the words too). Here is whats happening to Archon Delaine in Cycle 15

You can see our current expansion target of Wolf 412 and numbers 1 and 7 preparation systems very far from our capital, deep in Mahon space.
You can also see that our current number 1 prepped system is in a preparation race with Mahon, this system is worth 8cc to Mahon and -25cc to Delaine.

Last cycle this was the state of Archon Delaines preparation list:

Heres what happened.
Mahon had Wolf 412 pushed onto their preparation list and many of their supporters decided it was so bad they would stop fortifying and put their Power in turmoil to stop it expanding for them.
Mahon then fortified out of Turmoil, but a bug caused them to lose a system even though they had over 1000CC, this did stop them expanding to Wolf 412.

Last cycle Wolf 412 again was pushed high on Mahons preparation list. This time the response was for some Mahon players to defect to Archon Delaine and start a preparation war to force this system onto Archon Delaine instead. The systems is worth -8cc for Mahon, but -45cc for Delaine.

So there was a reverse battle for a system neither side wanted.
Mahon supporters sank nearly half a billion cr into prepping Wolf 412, that wasn't enough though, Hooriayan was another system on Mahons preparation list, this was worth 43CC to him, and -35cc to Delaine.
This was pushed second onto Delaines preparation list in the last day (which I would call preparation sniping)

So with a few hours left in the cycle Delaine had a system worth -45cc, a system worth -35cc and Gliese 828.4 which is bugged and can't be expanded.
Hooriayan "lost" its preparation battle for Delaine, so Archon Delaine only got 2 preparations, effecting his weekly ranking slightly.

The same thing is happening this cycle. Archon Delaine doesn't have the player base to counteract these actions (In fact no power probably does, pushing all your preparation targets above 45000 merits is extremely difficult for even Aisling or ALD)

The only solution is to join the exploiters. Defect from Archon Delaine, join Mahon and out prep the Mahon supporters pledged to Delaine.

This is the same way you can combat players with shield hacks, hack your own shields too.

I'm not saying all players pledged to Mahon are scumbags for doing this, this isn't something their entire playing base is doing or condoning.

Please, anyone, let me know how to counteract this using existing game mechanics, or maybe a dev could at least comment and say its something they MIGHT look at.

 

[FleetAdmiralJ]

I hope it's not Mahon supporters pushing these bad systems onto you (at least with Wolf 412 there was kind of a gentleman's agreement that we would help oppose it once it was there). I guess I wouldn't be surprised if there were some doing that.

But I should also point out that this chain of events is being done because someone is sabotaging Mahon in the first place. The way these preparations are going are clearly not being done by mere randoms trying to merit grind. This is a concerted effort to try to saddle Mahon with bad systems. An unfortunately, given the extreme uncertainty with going into turmoil to rid ourselves of bad expansions (which don't even work because we get them again anyway when coming out of turmoil), about the only solution as seen by some people is to try to push those systems onto yet someone else.

It is a very vicious and unfortunate cycle. It shouldn't happen to Mahon, and it's unfair that Archon is feeling the side effects from it as well.

Something seriously needs to be done to allow combating 5th columning by moles in your power.

 

[Mikalus]

But but...undermining sniping...

 

[Martin Schou]

Please, anyone, let me know how to counteract this using existing game mechanics, or maybe a dev could at least comment and say its something they MIGHT look at.

Sadly the only two ways inside existing game mechanics I know of to counter this is

1) Out-prep with other systems, which generally puts you at a disadvantage because you have to push multiple systems where as the saboteurs only have to push 1 system.
2) Defect to another power and play a mixed game of one-upmanship and hot potato.

I've seen a few suggestions to counter it. One was to give people vetos, but that'll just make 5th columning even more powerful. Push a bad system into the 10th place and then veto the crap out of everything else in the list at the last moment before turnover, and now the power is stuck with the crappy system.

The other (my own) is to make the preparation nominations actually mean something. Instead of allowing anyone with money to burn and time to spend (i.e. trolls and saboteurs) to push preparation systems as well as the preparation merit grinders, make the preparation nominations dictate each player's weekly allowance of preparation powerplay goods. If you're rank 0, you get absolutely no say in how your chosen power should expand in the future, which makes perfect sense, because at this point you're a complete outside. If you're rank 2 you get 10 for the week. If you're rank 5 you get 250 for the week. Yes, this makes the rank 5 players 25 times as powerful as the rank 2 players, but I honestly don't see a problem with this, because it takes a 100 times as much work to reach rank 5.

Doing it this way means it only takes one rank five player to counter a saboteur or a troll. It also makes the prep wars much more interesting, because you can't just get your rank 1 pledges to do the heavy lifting for you, and if all of your organized players are rank 2 (unlikely), you need to have 25 times as many of them as the organized opponent made up of rank 5 players.

It will also make prep wars much more strategic than they are now. Right now it's just a matter of piling on merits to win. If each player is given this limited amount of nominations, you also have to be strategic about when you use them.

 

[Mikalus]

The other (my own) is to make the preparation nominations actually mean something. Instead of allowing anyone with money to burn and time to spend (i.e. trolls and saboteurs) to push preparation systems as well as the preparation merit grinders, make the preparation nominations dictate each player's weekly allowance of preparation powerplay goods. If you're rank 0, you get absolutely no say in how your chosen power should expand in the future, which makes perfect sense, because at this point you're a complete outside. If you're rank 2 you get 10 for the week. If you're rank 5 you get 250 for the week. Yes, this makes the rank 5 players 25 times as powerful as the rank 2 players, but I honestly don't see a problem with this, because it takes a 100 times as much work to reach rank 5.

Doing it this way means it only takes one rank five player to counter a saboteur or a troll. It also makes the prep wars much more interesting, because you can't just get your rank 1 pledges to do the heavy lifting for you, and if all of your organized players are rank 2 (unlikely), you need to have 25 times as many of them as the organized opponent made up of rank 5 players.

It will also make prep wars much more strategic than they are now. Right now it's just a matter of piling on merits to win. If each player is given this limited amount of nominations, you also have to be strategic about when you use them.

This seems reasonable - at least a step in the right direction. I suppose the reason they haven't implemented that from the beginning is in an effort to not make commanders more 'godlike'? I don't know, the current system isn't working.

 

[FleetAdmiralJ]

I've seen a few suggestions to counter it. One was to give people vetos, but that'll just make 5th columning even more powerful. Push a bad system into the 10th place and then veto the crap out of everything else in the list at the last moment before turnover, and now the power is stuck with the crappy system.

Heh, I've been one of the ones suggesting vetoing. I suppose it could be a problem if one sniped vetoing (and no one had bothered casting counter-veto voting - or to vote to veto the bad system). I suppose your system is along the same as mine except it just overhauls the preparation system entirely (at least if I'm understanding your proposal) in which the preparation nominations we get is all that is used to prepare systems and that's it (which is actually how I thought it worked at first until I saw people could move merits as well)

 

[Martin Schou]

(which is actually how I thought it worked at first until I saw people could move merits as well)

Yeah, that was my original thinking too. The moment I noticed you could pick up more than that, their value just plummeted, because you could simply convert it into credits. 10 = 100,000 credits. 250 = 2,500,000 credits. Unless you're completely new to the game, these fake credits are essentially worthless.

 

[Vlad Archer]

We discussed it back in the first cycles of PP (your ALD times). I think there is only one counter. Defect to opposing power and go 5th column. Enemy needs X times more preparation than you if he can prep X systems.

I don't like almost whole PP mechanics.
Preparation = expansion based on mercenaries, who do what they please and defect when they want with minor consequences. I can see how it looks for Archon: "Yarr! Where should we go brothers? What should we claim? Let's vote, yarr!" All they need are magic pirate dublons. Also 5th column is strong here. Very strong and head of faction (NPC) does nothing to counter. Seriously, I think Archon has quick and solid response for traitors or spies.
Last minute undermining. If you are cautious and/or play solo, you can easily hug few tousands of merits and deliver it let's say durring last hour of the PP cycle. There is no counter play (well, there is, but again defender has weaker position). Whole defending faction need to have trade T9/condas full of fortification stuff. So on one side we have unlimited number of merits versus limited cargo capacity. Add slow PP status refresh to equation and there is no time to react if attack is executed correctly. Week long cycles, but last hour is most important. Very expoitable mechanic.
Both above examples have one similar feature. Assuming same faction/player coordination, defender has a lot weaker position. It has to be X times more defending players, doing reasonable stuff, not just grinding their merits(also why the hell someone gets paid for fortifying a system to 1200%?). I can only hope PP results would not afftect large scale storyline. With current mechanics I would trust die roll more than PP results.

TL/DR Nope, there is no defense. PP mechanic needs a work.


P.S. Pardon my grammar, etc.

Edit: Interesting post: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182240&p=2806771&viewfull=1#post2806771

 

[chagnampra]

The other (my own) is to make the preparation nominations actually mean something. Instead of allowing anyone with money to burn and time to spend (i.e. trolls and saboteurs) to push preparation systems as well as the preparation merit grinders, make the preparation nominations dictate each player's weekly allowance of preparation powerplay goods.

I like this idea. If FD are feeling bold, this could definitely outwit the saboteurs; but I fear it may prove to be too radical an idea for them to implement it anytime soon. I hope not. Sometimes I wonder if this is how FD hoped things would work out? Backstabbing and skullduggery throughout the Powers. If so, they may not be inclined to change anything.

Notably, I mentioned this in a thread I started on Friday in which Sandro commented on potentially capping undermining vouchers, but didn't comment on addressing the effects of 5th columning. Perhaps the in-house discussions are still ongoing? Anyway, at least threads like these highlight the issue.