Procedural CGs

[Ziggy Stardust]

Could this be a thing? Where you could influence the BGS in such a way it triggers a CG.

In another thread, there's talk about needing exploration data to counter excessive murdering. Now this only makes sense in the Elite universe. Inspector Barnaby! We've noticed a lot of murders in our community lately! Quick, lets take a trip to Africa. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the authorities issue an extra reward to bounty hunters to make it interesting for them to go hunt for criminal elements in the system?

Now to bring balance in the force, since there's also a faction looking to disstabilize the region, in response it might invite the criminal elements to wreak havoc. For other systems the struggle might be trade related so it might have competing trade CGs.

Could make for a more dynamic galaxy. The developers don't have to babysit every CG. The obvious downside as always is giving players this feature so they'll poke and prod it to see where it can be exploitered, potentially screwing over PMFs who took great care to carve out their empire.

edit: just realized how wrong it is to say: excessive murdering

 

[Leo Sagan]

Could this be a thing?

In theory, I'd say yes. As we don't know the specifics of ED back programming (as for me, I wouldn't be able to understand it anyway so ...), hard to tell.

Would it be awesome ? Definitely. Because it would give everyone the opportunity to make their own goals possible.

I suspect that D. Braben had that in mind early on. Now, I can't believe that building a vast game like ED wouldn't change one's initial plan, so we don't know where he stands now. But to me, a large part of Elite's magic lies in the procedural generation of goals and opportunities. I hope FD will be able to give us that at some point, even at an embryo state.

I'm not that sure they will though, tbh.

 

[Khazid]

Thats one good idea. +1

 

[two quiet suns]

A great idea!

 

[tomalus]

Please no, it would be a mess of epic proportions.The current system works,you can see player faction CG-s are now a thing that happens all the time.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes, but currently CG have very nice GM written stories for current CGs, and it would be lot of work to make them balanced.

However, such generated CGs could be something smaller.

Idea itself is possible, lot of work, if there's good dev pitch, FD might implement it.

 

[DNA-Decay]

At the moment CGs are used to progress story and lore.
BGS is for territory.

Frontier are hanging onto the reins of story for the time being.

Nice idea, but it means letting go a bit, and putting up with the lumps and bumps from a community.

 

[shadragon]

If it can be imagined in practical terms, it can be coded.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

If it can be imagined in practical terms, it can be coded.

That doesn't always mean that the resulting coding produces something that is either user-able, or particularly good - just try sharing Outlook calendars through Office 365.

 

[Old Duck]

The future isn't raw procedural generation, it's AI (which can then be used to feed existing progen algorithms). For example, a modern AI has written a novel that fooled everyone into thinking it was written by a human. I think Frontier needs to hire an AI expert and look at adding some AI-generated content, which can include CGs, but also AI-written GalNet news based on AI-lead powers and factions doing "thoughtful" things to push their agendas in the virtual galaxy. Now that would lead to dynamic gameplay full of surprises

Just don't let the AI escape from the BGS, or it'll become Skynet!

 

[Sentenza]

The rather obvious downside to BGS auto-generated CGs is that you will likely end up with a few hundreds CGs active at all times, which is the same as having none.

 

[Araviel]

what you are asking for Ziggy is not hard to do and can be achieved quite easy with normal scripting.
the problem with it is that the CG backstories would look rather blend and generic after awhile without manual input, even if you put a procedural algorithm into them. (see npc crew backstories for example)
Ratio control is also a issue, there would have to be some pretty hard conditions put into place to not make CG's spawn all over the place like for example - the combat zones.

 

[NeilF]

Could this be a thing? Where you could influence the BGS in such a way it triggers a CG.

In another thread, there's talk about needing exploration data to counter excessive murdering. Now this only makes sense in the Elite universe. Inspector Barnaby! We've noticed a lot of murders in our community lately! Quick, lets take a trip to Africa. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the authorities issue an extra reward to bounty hunters to make it interesting for them to go hunt for criminal elements in the system?

Now to bring balance in the force, since there's also a faction looking to disstabilize the region, in response it might invite the criminal elements to wreak havoc. For other systems the struggle might be trade related so it might have competing trade CGs.

Could make for a more dynamic galaxy. The developers don't have to babysit every CG. The obvious downside as always is giving players this feature so they'll poke and prod it to see where it can be exploitered, potentially screwing over PMFs who took great care to carve out their empire.

edit: just realized how wrong it is to say: excessive murdering

Yes, as long as they are small in number. We don't want dozens of them on the go at once. We want a few a month I guess...

AND we need more involved and interesting ones too - The mechanics are over 2yrs old... Let's improve them please! AND we need some in OPEN mode only to to help promote/orchestrate PvP for those interested in it.

 

[ElectricZ]

The BGS already does it to a certain degree with its states. Famine & Outbreak cause foodstuffs and medicines to go in super-high demand, driving up prices and making hauling very attractive. War causes conflict zones to appear. Lockdowns cause bounty hunting to be more profitable, and the reasons why these events happen are nicely chronicled in the local newspapers.

I think it would take just a couple tweaks to make them larger-scale and more appealing to Commanders:

1. Announce them in Galnet instead of just the local system news, just by using the existing proc gen story. If people knew that they existed and could make money/earn rep off of them, more people would pay attention and participate.
2. Gen up some kind of tier/reward system like the current CG. Maybe not as uber profitable, but still based on a CMDR's contribution to whatever the current effort is. What would be especially nice is a larger than +++ Rep increase for being a major contributor. After all, if you help save a Federation or Empire system with 5 billion people from a deadly outbreak, the Government should recognize you for it.

These would be shorter and much smaller in scope than organized CG's but thanks to the BGS would stop and start at different times in different locations all on their own. Giving them higher visibility (and rewards) would greatly increase participation.

 

[Drelthar]

Well, this is exactly what it seemed like the system would work like back when they were showing Braben talking about the evolving galaxy.

[video=youtube;5uKD1ap5hsI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKD1ap5hsI[/video]

Lot's of exploration data is delivered to a faction, which shows rich asteroid fields in systems on the border of populated space.

This triggers several factions who start a war over said asteroid fields (CG for combat bonds - Do these exist?)

War over space port begins to be constructed, requiring players to deliver materials (well, yep, they manually place down a CG for these)

Once constructed into a small outpost, politicians and dignitaries flood in for the opening (requiring a passenger CG ,which doesn't currently exist)

Then after players buy a lot of platinum from this new outpost, which obviously has a huge supply coming in (some from players?) the system decides to upgrade to an actual star port (new materials CG)

Then players, knowing which materials are needed to create an outfitting facility at a star port, bring in loads of those, which triggers the system to start a new CG to gain the final requireed materials to set up said outfitting.... (this would be so good to have)


etc etc.


I mean, that stuff SORT OF happens, but it's manually done, making it vastly less interesting and dynamic, and infinitely less personal.

 

[Kaocraft]

Well, this is exactly what it seemed like the system would work like back when they were showing Braben talking about the evolving galaxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKD1ap5hsI

Lot's of exploration data is delivered to a faction, which shows rich asteroid fields in systems on the border of populated space.

This triggers several factions who start a war over said asteroid fields (CG for combat bonds - Do these exist?)

War over space port begins to be constructed, requiring players to deliver materials (well, yep, they manually place down a CG for these)

Once constructed into a small outpost, politicians and dignitaries flood in for the opening (requiring a passenger CG ,which doesn't currently exist)

Then after players buy a lot of platinum from this new outpost, which obviously has a huge supply coming in (some from players?) the system decides to upgrade to an actual star port (new materials CG)

Then players, knowing which materials are needed to create an outfitting facility at a star port, bring in loads of those, which triggers the system to start a new CG to gain the final requireed materials to set up said outfitting.... (this would be so good to have)


etc etc.


I mean, that stuff SORT OF happens, but it's manually done, making it vastly less interesting and dynamic, and infinitely less personal.

Stop reminding me of that amazing game they never made and never will make.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

what you are asking for Ziggy is not hard to do and can be achieved quite easy with normal scripting.
the problem with it is that the CG backstories would look rather blend and generic after awhile without manual input, even if you put a procedural algorithm into them. (see npc crew backstories for example)
Ratio control is also a issue, there would have to be some pretty hard conditions put into place to not make CG's spawn all over the place like for example - the combat zones.

Indeed. The CGs now are big events with regard to background. Procedural CGs would be more organic. Not really someone calling for it, but rather market, political forces which end up in a struggle.

And I disagree it would be simple. Since it's the result of players who are working the BGS, players have a large influence. Players are not predictable, not scriptable. The challenge would be to regulate those actions into a believable procedural event. The backstory is provided by the situation. Plus there is the issue of balancing competing CGs.

An example can be seen in the thread about exploits in BGS. There's a lot of murder in a system, murder with the goal to destabilize that region. Authorities would be making an appeal to bounty hunters. Go hunt criminals, and on top of the regular bounty, we'll make it worth your while. On the other hand, there's the faction looking to destabilize.

Maybe CG is the wrong term for my brainfart.

 

[JeffRyan]

The biggest problem is tier balance. Some CGs (where people earn a lot of money) fly through the tiers in a day. Others, you won't hit tier 2 in a week because it's thematic and people are less interested in thematic if it's not profitable.

 

[Lightspeed]

Indeed. The CGs now are big events with regard to background. Procedural CGs would be more organic. Not really someone calling for it, but rather market, political forces which end up in a struggle.

And I disagree it would be simple. Since it's the result of players who are working the BGS, players have a large influence. Players are not predictable, not scriptable. The challenge would be to regulate those actions into a believable procedural event. The backstory is provided by the situation. Plus there is the issue of balancing competing CGs.

An example can be seen in the thread about exploits in BGS. There's a lot of murder in a system, murder with the goal to destabilize that region. Authorities would be making an appeal to bounty hunters. Go hunt criminals, and on top of the regular bounty, we'll make it worth your while. On the other hand, there's the faction looking to destabilize.

Maybe CG is the wrong term for my brainfart.

It's a good idea to kick off discussion on this ahead of 3.0 thinking at FD. If we could just get the CGs not involved all the time in hauling stuff or bounty hunting .... ie lots of variety ... that would be an advancement. [yesnod] (Though to be fair they have had mining before, and tried the Thargoid materials but botched that with hauling stuff again.)

 

[Kayweg]

If doable, it could erase that feeling of outside intervention from CGs, that feeling you're not dealing with a challenge the game throws at you, but instead you're jumping through FD hoops.
Something i have disliked about them for a long time now.
The same with the occurrence of new stations/outposts.
It may be too much to ask, i know, but if the game itself (and not FD directly) could apply all these occurring changes, based on nothing but player activity, it could possibly become a more dynamic and unpredictable galaxy.
In the beginning i thought, this whole concept of FD being sort of a GM sounded like an intriguing idea.
I changed my mind about that.