I am very confused about the range to the Przewalski’s Wild Horse. It’s Zoopedia mentions that they can be found in Eastern Europe, but that is not reflected in their ing-game range data. I know that they were reintroduced to their native range in Europe, but since they naturally occured here before their local extinction and now occur here again, I don’t see why they don’t have the ‘Europe’ tag. Anyone else confused, or have I missed a big piece of vital information?
Przewalski’s Wild Horse - Europe
- Thread starter Angeł
- Start date
Based on rewildingeurope site:
We haven't found Przewalski's Horse remains in Europe and instead we used to have different subspecies Tarpan which is same species known as Equus Ferus
From my simple understanding Przewalski's Horse was chosen as rewilding subject because:
Very similar proxy species. You can use it freely in european sections as you wish.
We haven't found Przewalski's Horse remains in Europe and instead we used to have different subspecies Tarpan which is same species known as Equus Ferus
From my simple understanding Przewalski's Horse was chosen as rewilding subject because:
- its endangered and various oragnizations found Europe as good place to keep them in wild.
- ancient european horse reasembled Przewalski's Horse
Very similar proxy species. You can use it freely in european sections as you wish.
Those aren't a Subspecies though but a completely different Species. Hard to tell if they should add Europe to that Part of the Zoopedia. I mean we also don't have a Florida Tag for Indian Peafowl and Green Iguanas
Tarpans and Przewalski's horse are usually considered the same species under Equus ferus, sometimes alongside the domestic horse (depends on whether or not you follow the traditional convention of classifying domestics as distinct species). Given PZ uses Equus ferus przewalskii they also follow this classification.
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Ok, seems like the German Wikipedia Page got it wrong because it's listed as Equus przewalskii there instead of Equus ferus przewalskii.
Maybe I should make a Wikipedia Account because that's already the second Time I've encountered a Inconsistency like that
There are some taxonomists who treat Przewalski's horse as a separate species (so technically it's not really an error but a difference in opinion), but it isn't the commonly accepted view.
I'm pretty sure they have already been extensively investigated genetically, but even that isn't very conclusive in defining species these days (just look at other examples of animals with highly debated taxonomy like red wolves and dingoes). Oh poor species concept, if only you weren't so broken by modern science.Someone needs to genetically test them so we know for sure which one is right
Haven’t they been seen in the Ukraine?
I think there's a Population in the Area around the Nuclear Power Plant in Chernobyl but they might also live in other Parts of the Country
Thought it was clear that Red Wolves are a separate Species. No Matter what's right, they definitely need to be protected
Nope. It is now "widely accepted", which is a vague statement on its own.
My advice would be to consult English Wikipedia first, it's less opinion-based than the German version from what I can tell. German Wikipedia has a lot of outdated or non-factual information.
Red wolves are an ecological species and self-sustaining, but it originates from coyote x grey wolf hybridation (which is throughly extended, as coyotes and grey wolves are sister species to begin with, and admixture is so prevalent as to make EVERY coyote in the planet to have grey wolf ancestry, and every North American grey wolf to have coyote ancestry). Hybridation is THROUGHLY widespread in nature and is an important driving force of evolution, yet it clashes with pedigree-based mentality, which is a cultural human construct, often used to keep families in power.
However, hybrid ancestry is used as a red flag in conservation, "it isn't a rare species, it is a mutt". Which is a dangerous misunderstanding of ecology. It is not all about tidy neat separate boxes, it is all gradual diversity that may or may not be interrupted.
The Mayr concept of species is throughly outdated. Specially on plants, oh my god plants are insane and solve an uneven chromosomic count by duplicating their entire genome so meiosis may proceed.
However, hybrid ancestry is used as a red flag in conservation, "it isn't a rare species, it is a mutt". Which is a dangerous misunderstanding of ecology. It is not all about tidy neat separate boxes, it is all gradual diversity that may or may not be interrupted.
The Mayr concept of species is throughly outdated. Specially on plants, oh my god plants are insane and solve an uneven chromosomic count by duplicating their entire genome so meiosis may proceed.
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Somehow I forgot that their Ancestors probably were Hybrids. In my Opinion they still need to be protected though because they aren't first Generation Hybrids. I would count them as a new Species or at least Subspecies. They look different from usual Coywolfs and as I just found out the wild Population consisted only of 10 Individuals at the Beginning of last Year. There are also only 250 kept in Zoos so something needs to be done now or the Species might be lost forever.
Wouldn't be the first Time that Hybridization causes the Evolution of a new Species. Already happened with some Insect (don't remember which one would need to find out the Species first).
There's by the Way also a Theory that they aren't the Descendants of Hybrids but just hybridized a lot with other Species which sadly starts to happen more often because of the small Redwolf Population left in the Wild. One Subspecies, the Florida Black Wolf is already extinct
If Frontier would decide to give us another Wolf from North America instead of Europe or Asia, I really hope it would be this one. Really want it in the Game now
Also happened with the European Bison, the hybridization with the Uro and the Primitive bison from Europe
Don't even know about any Species named Uro. I know though that due to the extremely small Population in the Past, that all Wisents that are alive today are Hybrids between both Wisent SubspeciesEdit: either Google is stupid or Uro is just a different Name for the Aurochs/Ur or a Typo. I assume the last one
Uro is the commonly used Spanish name for the aurochs, the wild Eurasian cattle. The wisent also shows some degree of hybrid ancestry, with plenty of mitDNA coming from the auroch, to the point it clades as the closest relative of domestic cattle in mitDNA studies (with American bison closest to the yak).
And the African forest elephant both forms a continuum with the bush elephant, AND has Palaeoloxodon ancestry. And Palaeoloxodon is closer to the Asian elephant, thus the confusing stuff that arises with the African elephant clade.
Ah, and then there's the edible frog and the complex way it can sustain its population only by hybridation, or the New Mexico whiptail, which has hybrid origins, males are unviable, and sustains itself by parthenogenesis and new hybridation events.
"Hybrids shouldn't be protected" is an ignorant approach to conservation, specially when enforced by a species that has plenty of hybridation in its ancestry.
And the African forest elephant both forms a continuum with the bush elephant, AND has Palaeoloxodon ancestry. And Palaeoloxodon is closer to the Asian elephant, thus the confusing stuff that arises with the African elephant clade.
Ah, and then there's the edible frog and the complex way it can sustain its population only by hybridation, or the New Mexico whiptail, which has hybrid origins, males are unviable, and sustains itself by parthenogenesis and new hybridation events.
"Hybrids shouldn't be protected" is an ignorant approach to conservation, specially when enforced by a species that has plenty of hybridation in its ancestry.
Depends on the kind of Hybrid though. If it evolved into its own Species it should be protected or if Hybridization is absolutely necessary to prevent a Species from completely going extinct those are also worth to be protected. Other Hybrids of course also deserve a good Home but shouldn't be intentionally released to the Wild unless they might in some Way help with Conservation (eating invasive Species for Example if they don't become a Threat to the Ecosystem themselfes)"Hybrids shouldn't be protected" is an ignorant approach to conservation, specially when enforced by a species that has plenty of hybridation in its ancestry.
Grolar bears are pretty much the way polar bear genes may survive. The Southern white rhino has very low genetic diversity, while the Northern white rhino is a zombie species.
And "absolutely necessary"? Species is a man-made concept after all. We end up falling in the "preserving purity" trap.
Same thing as with dingos, which have become a cornerstone species of the present Australian ecosystem, yet some people treat them as if they were on the same ground as feral cats in Australia, or feral dogs in Europe.
And "absolutely necessary"? Species is a man-made concept after all. We end up falling in the "preserving purity" trap.
Same thing as with dingos, which have become a cornerstone species of the present Australian ecosystem, yet some people treat them as if they were on the same ground as feral cats in Australia, or feral dogs in Europe.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
The idea that the only dingoes worth protecting are pure dingoes is also very common unfortunately, despite the fact that the vast majority of hybrids are still mostly dingo genetically and are entirely indistinguishable from pure animals in every regard but genetics (not even coat colour is considered a useful indicator anymore). Of course excessive hybridisation should not be encouraged, but if an animal looks like a dingo, acts like a dingo, fills the ecological role of a dingo and has majority dingo ancestry, it's a dingo in my eyes.
Canins as a whole seem to have a history of extensive hybridisation - outside of the examples from North America you already mentioned, there's things like dingoes being 2% Himalayan wolf, African wild dogs and dholes showing evidence of ancient hybridisation with each other despite there currently being no fossil evidence that they even coexisted, and the whole situation with the African golden wolf (formerly believed to be the same species as the golden jackal, now thought to be distinct but hybridised with a range of other Canis species). Nature doesn't care about the boxes humans try to enforce over it.
(red lines indicate historic hybridisation)