PSA: Clean Drive Tuning is NOT for Explorers

A little less than a month ago I ran some tests comparing Clean Drive Tuning (CD) and Dirty Drive Tuning (DD) as I was engineering my Asp Explorer for exploration and trying to lower the heat signature so I could fuel scoop for longer. It occurred to me that the extra power draw of CD could directly counteract the benefits of the reduced thermal load; which lead to my testing.

For anyone interested in looking at the original thread here's a link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...is-Pointless?p=5547817&viewfull=1#post5547817

This thread will mostly be a consolidation of all the results and a few new conclusions. It will also be lots of text, so continue at your own discretion.

TL/DR: CD as a mod only has advantages in silent running and even then it doesn't significantly outperform standard drives in duration. The only reason it is better for silent running builds is because it has an optimal multiplier increase in addition to the similar duration in SR as Standard drives.




Intro:
For these tests five ships were used: the Asp Explorer, Dolphin, Fer-De-Lance, Type-7, and Vulture. These ships were chosen as all five are equipped with class 5 drives, and provide a sample pool that is about 1/6 the population of ships currently in the game. These ships were outfitted with a grade A power plant of respective size to the ship and fitted with a heat sink launcher. The drives were Class 5 Grade A, standard, Clean drive, and Dirty drive modified. The drives used can be seen in the spoilers below; the goal was not to get a god roll, but to get an average high positive, high negative roll.

Standard:
72blpef.jpg
Clean:
4ycj7T2.jpg
Dirty:
z2Ngc9a.jpg

Procedure:
Two Tests were performed with each ship using stock loadouts with the exception of the power plant and thrusters. Each ship was tested with the three different types of thrusters and the lowest temperature was recorded at 100% throttle. The Highest temperature was measured by boosting several times and recording the highest temperature spike (Many images were collected during this set of tests; the imgur albums are available near the bottom of this post).

Four different Silent Running tests were performed on each ship with each type of drive. All of these tests began with the same procedure: all modules were deactivated except for the heat sink launcher, silent running was activated, a heat sink was launched, the heat sink launcher was deactivated before the sink was ejected from the ship. This method is the same as was used by CMDR Frenotx in researching heat mechanics. The first test began with the throttle at 0% and activating the thrusters and a stopwatch at the same time, the time was then recorded until the "Warning Heat Damage" message appeared in the top right info panel indicating the ship had reached 100% heat. The same methods were used with the throttle starting at 100% for the second test. The third test involved cycling the throttle between full forward (100%) and full reverse (-100%) never allowing the ship to reach max speed in either direction. For the final test the power distributor was powered on and drives were activated the moment the heat sink launcher ejected the sink. The number of boosts before reaching 100% heat was then recorded.

Results:

bpPh2tQ.jpg



SLsTkgE.jpg


The BTU of each ship was calculated using Frenotx's method and when compared to the confirmed values seemed to line up. Hypothesis T-Tests were used to indicate if a difference between two data sets was significant; any value less than or equal to 0.05 (5%) is considered significant.
A few interesting discoveries:


  • The termal load of thrusters is constant over all classes and grades, meaning ships with higher thermal capacity are less affected by a difference in thermal load
  • The thermal load of thrusters is only applied when the ship is changing velocity once max speed has been reached the thermal load is no longer applied even if the engines visibly appear to be "On"
  • The heat generated from boosting is a stat that may or may not be independent of thruster thermal load as can be seen in the differences between the FDL, T7, and Vulture which all have similar thermal capacity but much different heat per boost

Conclusions:
The 0% and 100% t-test results showed no significant difference between clean and dirty drives. However, it was pointed out by baqar79 that my testing methodology for 100% was flawed which lead to the Varying throttle test. One result of note is that clean drives performed worse than standard drives in all cases when silent running at 0%; this makes sense as CD has a higher power draw than standard drives, and in this particular test the thermal load was not a factor. The varying throttle test shows where CD really shines, in having similar performance to standard drive in terms of duration while having the advantage of an increased optimal multiplier. Taking into account the first set of tests that shows no statistically significant difference in heat generation between CD and DD, while DD does have a boost speed that is significant the conclusion that Clean Drive Tuning is only useful for Silent Running can be reached. So, in this regard CD is similar to the Fast FSD boot mod where it is useful, but only in a niche application.

Recommendation:
Clean Drive Tuning is a bit misleading in its name; the name makes one think that it should be more efficient, when in fact it isn't. For that reason I propose that Clean Drive Tuning be renamed Silent Drive Tuning. I also think that another mod should be added called Efficient Drive Tuning that has a mass reduction, power reduction, and thermal load reduction; with negatives of a large reduction in integrity, and a reduction in optimal multiplier. Efficient Drive Tuning would be a mod for those looking to explore as it would increase fuel economy and reduce mass.

Albums from first test:
AspX: http://imgur.com/a/fPE4j
Dolphin: http://imgur.com/a/o9Lqn
FDL: http://imgur.com/a/9UzT4
T7: http://imgur.com/a/5XB70
Vulture: http://imgur.com/a/94DXz
 
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Deleted member 115407

D
Was having a discussion along these lines yesterday. Thanks.
 
PSA: repeat your test on skardee 1 (hot), and on achenar 3 (high G). not taking ambient temperature and high G into account is a bit of a problem when testing drives for explorers.
 
PSA: repeat your test on skardee 1 (hot), and on achenar 3 (high G). not taking ambient temperature and high G into account is a bit of a problem when testing drives for explorers.

I'm not saying explorers should take DD thrusters, but from everything I've tested CD and standard drives have very similar performance. In my very first post in the linked thread I did some testing using only my AspX and the difference was only 1%, granted that was on a 0.5G planet, so I'll look into testing the different drives at the locations you listed.
 
I don't engineer my exploration drives with grade 5 clean drive tuning. I engineer them with grade 1 CDTs, and keep rolling until I get a bonus power draw secondary. That way, they run cooler than standard, have a bit more thrust, and draw a bit less power, and all it takes is sulphur.

People keep focusing on the grade 5 modifications, and ignore the fact that often the grade one might be better for the job you need them to do.
 
A little less than a month ago I ran some tests comparing Clean Drive Tuning (CD) and Dirty Drive Tuning (DD) as I was engineering my Asp Explorer for exploration and trying to lower the heat signature so I could fuel scoop for longer. It occurred to me that the extra power draw of CD could directly counteract the benefits of the reduced thermal load; which lead to my testing.

For anyone interested in looking at the original thread here's a link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...is-Pointless?p=5547817&viewfull=1#post5547817

This thread will mostly be a consolidation of all the results and a few new conclusions. It will also be lots of text, so continue at your own discretion.

TL/DR: CD as a mod only has advantages in silent running and even then it doesn't significantly outperform standard drives in duration. The only reason it is better for silent running builds is because it has an optimal multiplier increase in addition to the similar duration in SR as Standard drives.




Intro:
For these tests five ships were used: the Asp Explorer, Dolphin, Fer-De-Lance, Type-7, and Vulture. These ships were chosen as all five are equipped with class 5 drives, and provide a sample pool that is about 1/6 the population of ships currently in the game. These ships were outfitted with a grade A power plant of respective size to the ship and fitted with a heat sink launcher. The drives were Class 5 Grade A, standard, Clean drive, and Dirty drive modified. The drives used can be seen in the spoilers below; the goal was not to get a god roll, but to get an average high positive, high negative roll.

Standard:
Clean:
Dirty:

Procedure:
Two Tests were performed with each ship using stock loadouts with the exception of the power plant and thrusters. Each ship was tested with the three different types of thrusters and the lowest temperature was recorded at 100% throttle. The Highest temperature was measured by boosting several times and recording the highest temperature spike (Many images were collected during this set of tests; the imgur albums are available near the bottom of this post).

Four different Silent Running tests were performed on each ship with each type of drive. All of these tests began with the same procedure: all modules were deactivated except for the heat sink launcher, silent running was activated, a heat sink was launched, the heat sink launcher was deactivated before the sink was ejected from the ship. This method is the same as was used by CMDR Frenotx in researching heat mechanics. The first test began with the throttle at 0% and activating the thrusters and a stopwatch at the same time, the time was then recorded until the "Warning Heat Damage" message appeared in the top right info panel indicating the ship had reached 100% heat. The same methods were used with the throttle starting at 100% for the second test. The third test involved cycling the throttle between full forward (100%) and full reverse (-100%) never allowing the ship to reach max speed in either direction. For the final test the power distributor was powered on and drives were activated the moment the heat sink launcher ejected the sink. The number of boosts before reaching 100% heat was then recorded.

Results:

http://i.imgur.com/bpPh2tQ.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/SLsTkgE.jpg

The BTU of each ship was calculated using Frenotx's method and when compared to the confirmed values seemed to line up. Hypothesis T-Tests were used to indicate if a difference between two data sets was significant; any value less than or equal to 0.05 (5%) is considered significant.
A few interesting discoveries:


  • The termal load of thrusters is constant over all classes and grades, meaning ships with higher thermal capacity are less affected by a difference in thermal load
  • The thermal load of thrusters is only applied when the ship is changing velocity once max speed has been reached the thermal load is no longer applied even if the engines visibly appear to be "On"
  • The heat generated from boosting is a stat that may or may not be independent of thruster thermal load as can be seen in the differences between the FDL, T7, and Vulture which all have similar thermal capacity but much different heat per boost

Conclusions:
The 0% and 100% t-test results showed no significant difference between clean and dirty drives. However, it was pointed out by baqar79 that my testing methodology for 100% was flawed which lead to the Varying throttle test. One result of note is that clean drives performed worse than standard drives in all cases when silent running at 0%; this makes sense as CD has a higher power draw than standard drives, and in this particular test the thermal load was not a factor. The varying throttle test shows where CD really shines, in having similar performance to standard drive in terms of duration while having the advantage of an increased optimal multiplier. Taking into account the first set of tests that shows no statistically significant difference in heat generation between CD and DD, while DD does have a boost speed that is significant the conclusion that Clean Drive Tuning is only useful for Silent Running can be reached. So, in this regard CD is similar to the Fast FSD boot mod where it is useful, but only in a niche application.

Recommendation:
Clean Drive Tuning is a bit misleading in its name; the name makes one think that it should be more efficient, when in fact it isn't. For that reason I propose that Clean Drive Tuning be renamed Silent Drive Tuning. I also think that another mod should be added called Efficient Drive Tuning that has a mass reduction, power reduction, and thermal load reduction; with negatives of a large reduction in integrity, and a reduction in optimal multiplier. Efficient Drive Tuning would be a mod for those looking to explore as it would increase fuel economy and reduce mass.

Albums from first test:
AspX: http://imgur.com/a/fPE4j
Dolphin: http://imgur.com/a/o9Lqn
FDL: http://imgur.com/a/9UzT4
T7: http://imgur.com/a/5XB70
Vulture: http://imgur.com/a/94DXz

+1 for your tests
I am not home,so can't look up my Asp setup, but I always use 6A scoops as they fill up my 16t tanks very quickly,hence no heat issues. In general my Asp runs very cold compared to other ships.
 
I'm not saying explorers should take DD thrusters, but from everything I've tested CD and standard drives have very similar performance. In my very first post in the linked thread I did some testing using only my AspX and the difference was only 1%, granted that was on a 0.5G planet, so I'll look into testing the different drives at the locations you listed.

perfect :)

generally, if only in SC, you are probably right that e-class thrusters (least powerusage) or d-class thrusters (least weight) unmodded are probably the best explorers choice.
 
Thanks OP for your tests. Tests to see how things work are always good.

That said:

I use DDT5 on the thrusters of my DBX [hehe]
Heat is not a problem.
But my DBX is not exactly an optimized exploration ship (still jumps 50+ lys)
 
Excellent findings. Rep. Tagging this thread for updates.

I usually use CTD to get the added speed and some weight reduction rather than the heat efficiency per-se.

Have you done any testing on the effects in super cruise? Since explorers and buckyballers are mainly interested in heat levels while scooping, the effects in SC would be more relevant.
Heat levels are never an issue in normal space.
 
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_trent_

Volunteer Moderator
What an interesting thread. Have some rep for your efforts O.P. +1

My explorer account has an AspX with L3 Clean Drives in it, I just threw them on expecting them to be better for heat management. We'll since I'm 11.5k LY outside the bubble there's not much I can do about it now. [noob]
 
Amazing quality control op so thanks for that. I do find however that with my d3 cleans my DBX and my AspX run cooler than with d3 dirties.
 
I don't engineer my exploration drives with grade 5 clean drive tuning. I engineer them with grade 1 CDTs, and keep rolling until I get a bonus power draw secondary. That way, they run cooler than standard, have a bit more thrust, and draw a bit less power, and all it takes is sulphur.

People keep focusing on the grade 5 modifications, and ignore the fact that often the grade one might be better for the job you need them to do.

Exacly. I usually roll on the grade 1 overcharged power plant until I get a heat efficiency secondary effect. Then I got a powerplant that is both efficient and light. You can have so much fun with only sulphur!
 
Excellent findings. Rep. Tagging this thread for updates.

I usually use CTD to get the added speed and some weight reduction rather than the heat efficient per-se.

Have you done any testing on the effects in super cruise? Since explorers and buckyballers are mainly interested in heat levels while scooping, the effects in SC would be more relevant.
Heat levels are never an issue in normal space.

Standard SC idle temp seems to line up with normal space idle temp. I recall reading somewhere that the heat generated from fuel scooping is an arbitrary value based on the ship. I looked for a source but couldn't find where I read that; I'll keep looking and edit it in if I find it. That being said Clean drive tuning has a higher idle temp due to the increased power draw, so if anything clean drives would be slightly worse at fuel scooping.
 
Standard SC idle temp seems to line up with normal space idle temp. I recall reading somewhere that the heat generated from fuel scooping is an arbitrary value based on the ship. I looked for a source but couldn't find where I read that; I'll keep looking and edit it in if I find it. That being said Clean drive tuning has a higher idle temp due to the increased power draw, so if anything clean drives would be slightly worse at fuel scooping.

depends on your fuelscooping technique. on the way towards the next jump point, when you already engage FSD while still fuel scooping, you are accelerating (=thruster usage), and the same rules apply to acceleration in normal space (=heat is produced by thruster usage).

this is of course a bit non-sensical, as there is no reason why one should use thrusters to accelerate in supercruise.

but with clean drive tuning you can engage the FSD drive a bit earlier (at full scooping) already.
 
I don't mean to sound pedantic because I have a feeling you guys may know more than me, but why is the OP trying to fuel scoop for longer and all the attendant heat problems that come with, when you should be trying to fuel scoop for shorter? Fuel scoops have no mass in the game, so putting the biggest one possible on your ship doesn't reduce your jump range whatsoever. But it DOES greatly reduce the time it takes to top off your fuel tank. Put a 6A Fuel Scoop in that biggest slot on your Asp and your tank will go from empty to full in less than 5 seconds. If the Asp is fitted for exploring then there should be very few optional internal modules fitted anyway, so there should be plenty of room for a 6A or 5A fuel scoop. Now your fuel tank fills up so fast you really don't need to worry about heat buildup during refueling.
 
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depends on your fuelscooping technique. on the way towards the next jump point, when you already engage FSD while still fuel scooping, you are accelerating (=thruster usage), and the same rules apply to acceleration in normal space (=heat is produced by thruster usage).

this is of course a bit non-sensical, as there is no reason why one should use thrusters to accelerate in supercruise.

but with clean drive tuning you can engage the FSD drive a bit earlier (at full scooping) already.

I've never noticed a difference in SC temperatures when accelerating or decellerating, only time I've noticed a temperature difference with any drive is while near a star.

I don't mean to sound pedantic, but why is the OP trying to fuel scoop for longer and all the attendant heat problems, when you should be trying to fuel scoop for shorter? Fuel scoops have no mass in the game, so putting the biggest one possible on your ship doesn't reduce your jump range whatsoever. But it DOES greatly reduce the time it takes to top off your fuel tank. Put a 6A Fuel Scoop in that biggest slot on your Asp and your tank will go from empty to full in less than 5 seconds. If the Asp is fitted for exploring then there should be very few optional internal modules fitted anyway, so there should be plenty of room for a 6A or 5A fuel scoop. Now your fuel tank fills up so fast you really don't need to worry about heat buildup during refueling.

I didn't do any Fuel scooping tests; there are some people here saying clean drive tuning is better for Fuel scooping but the thermal load from engines is not applied in SC as far as I can tell.
 
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Exacly. I usually roll on the grade 1 overcharged power plant until I get a heat efficiency secondary effect. Then I got a powerplant that is both efficient and light. You can have so much fun with only sulphur!

I've been going with the grade 1 low emissions power plant mod myself, and keep going until I get a power secondary effect. It's a way to use up my excess iron. The downside is that they usually weigh a bit more, but I've gotten lucky with a couple mass reduction secondaries thrown into the mix.
 
I didn't do any Fuel scooping tests; there are some people here saying clean drive tuning is better for Fuel scooping but the thermal load from engines is not applied in SC as far as I can tell.

it is, if you are accelerating or decellerating, pretty much the same as with behaviour in normal space. of course peaks are lower as you can't use lateral or vertical thrusters, and it assumes that you build dissipates less heat per second than is generated, which isn't the case on most ships and builds when rigged for exploring (like: turning off all moduls not necessary for sc). it is very noticeable in a "hot running" ship like a courier closer to a star (when acceleration kicks in, which needs a minimum distance from the star).
 
Has anyone tried testing the duration of fuel scooping with the different drives? Even if it's best not to scoop for too long, it IS helpful to be able to scoop longer sometimes. It also means you can get closer to the body exclusion zone. Some ships are better at this than others.

Another thing from my own testing between clean and dirty drives is the heat that comes from not just boosting, but boost *turns* especially in high gravity. Clean drives never seem to reach a critical temperature, even if I'm boost turning above the surface frequently, whereas dirty drives start to fizzle after only two of three.

Either way, I still prefer clean drives on my Asp as I care more about keeping my ship cool under as many circumstances possible without worry. Plus with class 5 CD, she's quite fast, rest assured.

I'll probably try dirty drives on a Diamondback Explorer, mind you. DBE already runs ridiculously cool, so I'm not too worried here.
 
I don't mean to sound pedantic, but why is the OP trying to fuel scoop for longer and all the attendant heat problems, when you should be trying to fuel scoop for shorter? Fuel scoops have no mass in the game, so putting the biggest one possible on your ship doesn't reduce your jump range whatsoever. But it DOES greatly reduce the time it takes to top off your fuel tank. Put a 6A Fuel Scoop in that biggest slot on your Asp and your tank will go from empty to full in less than 5 seconds. If the Asp is fitted for exploring then there should be very few optional internal modules fitted anyway, so there should be plenty of room for a 6A or 5A fuel scoop. Now your fuel tank fills up so fast you really don't need to worry about heat buildup during refueling.

Some people, like racers and those who don't want to waste time by flying safely, start charging for a hyperspace jump while still refueling. Being able to run cooler means that you can make several extra jumps before your heat rises to dangerous levels.

For explorers, having a cool running ship means that you don't necessarily need to bring a heat sink, just in case you jump too close to a star. Given how light some explorers build their ships, 1.3 tons of heat sink launcher can mean the difference between reaching an extreme destination or not.
 
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