PSA: you probably don't know what makes a good game

KaizoMK

KaizoMK
This has been bothering me for a while now, and I'm sure what I have to say won't be new to a few of you. Lots of people, as individuals of the community, have complained about literally every single design choice that has conceivably been made or not made. 10% module tax is unfair. Free module sellback is terrible. RES farming is broken now. Trade is OP. Trade isn't good enough. Repair costs are ridiculous. Repair costs are too low.

Now it's not a surprise that people like to complain. Heck, it's important since this is a continuous project and all. And I should preface this by pointing out that I like the community as a whole....very intelligent and friendly for the most part, although not without its share of complainers. Lots of people come up with reasonable explanations for why they think a feature should be changed/removed/added. Many others just vomit opinions and state rather assuredly that FD ruined "our game" for us. All par for the course really.

From what I can tell, the community has been heard - the majority of FD's design decisions and choices thus far have been pretty spot on, although far from perfect. This is essentially the first early access game that I've failed to truly get bored of, and that's because despite being incomplete, the gameplay is fun and engaging if you let it be. Their vision of "blaze your own trail" holds true, although again it's far from complete. I have done what I wanted, including piracy, smuggling, hunting, exploring, trading, missions, war, grinding, insurance fraud, and generally faffing about. It's been an absolute blast and I won't stop for a long time.

I feel I have a pretty firm grasp of what is actually fun in games. Some choices are down to personal preference, others are immutable constants (and it's hilarious to see people argue against these constants.) Frankly, I don't understand all of the balanced and fine lines involved here...but based on FD's performance thus far, I trust that they do, and that they're listening to the community and ultimately producing a good game, getting better and better all the time.

So by all means, if something doesn't sit right with you, please post about it. FD will give it the appropriate attention as they always do. Just know that the end result is going to be a good game whether you think so or not.

/rant
 

random_tangent

R
So....Gamers don't know what constitutes a good game? I'm confused. What is a "good game" if not one which the target audience enjoy? What other yardstick is there to measure something subjective, if not whether you satisfy your customers and your audience? How do you know something is a "good game" if everybody hates it?

No offence, but you're just complaining about people complaining...whilst at the same time sort-of agreeing with them.
 

Jukelo

Jukelo
KaizoMK said:
Well yea, if you don't like the dish say so. But you do have to be a cook to understand what the problem is. If you add and subtract things all willy nilly you'll be left with something silly.
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Problem is, we have been shown no evidence that there is any good cook at FD.

As for your title, it's wrong. A good game is an enjoyable game, that sells copies thanks to how much players like its mechanics, its atmosphere, its presentation... It's not enough to shift a lot of copies by relying on a brand name and false advertising.
And reall, you don't need to be a game dev to know if you're enjoying your $60.
 
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random_tangent

R
KaizoMK said:
Well yea, if you don't like the dish say so. But you do have to be a cook to understand what the problem is. If you add and subtract things all willy nilly you'll be left with something silly.
Click to expand...

You don't have to be a game-designer to be an expert in game-play and game-mechanics. Those concepts are easily undestood by the layman veteran gamer. Intelligent people who have played games all their lives, believe it or not, do have something useful to say. They have constructive suggestions to make. You don't have to understand design patterns or optimisation or graphics pipelines to know what you think would constitute a fun and interesting gameplay mechanic.

To be honest, if people were just coming on here to say "this is crap" without saying anything constructive, I'd have thought people would have more of an issue.
 

Tarman

Tarman
KaizoMK said:
I feel I have a pretty firm grasp of what is actually fun in games. Some choices are down to personal preference, others are immutable constants (and it's hilarious to see people argue against these constants.) Frankly, I don't understand all of the balanced and fine lines involved here...but based on FD's performance thus far, I trust that they do, and that they're listening to the community and ultimately producing a good game, getting better and better all the time.
Click to expand...

My favourite part of this post.
 

LeetNoob

LeetNoob
Ahh, so you’re the guy who knows what fun is and will tell us all our idea of fun is wrong? you arrived just in time.

The gaming community and market decides what a good game is.

OP doesn’t know what a good thread is.
 
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Kiblams

Kiblams
I think the key to making an enjoyable game these days is to have emergent gameplay, you don't have to look very far to see how successful a game can be if it has mechanics to facilitate emergent gameplay, and on an open ended online game which is as big as Elite, IMO; it's verging on criminal to not allow any emergent gameplay.

I bought the game knowing that there were improvements coming in the future, I just didn't know at the time that FDev seem to be illergic to emergent gaming mechanics. If I had, I would not have purchased it in the first place, especially considering the high price. I just stick around in the hope that they might finally add something worth playing because besides Star Citizen; this is the only game I can see a massive potential in, beginning to think I am crazy for thinking that.
 
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KaizoMK

KaizoMK
Tarman said:
My favourite part of this post.
Click to expand...

Heh, right? I think what I mean to say is that I couldn't make a good game or even produce a proper formula. But I feel a lot of people make complaints without even considering what they're asking or that they're the problem. How many people have complained that bounty hunting got nerfed as a profession, when it in fact got massive buffs and some much needed changes? Granted, it's good for them that they did, because their mistake gets pointed out to them and they realize that you have to go out and hunt now, and that it's more profitable AND more fun than RES farming.
 

Julissa Silver

Julissa Silver
Tarman said:
My favourite part of this post.
Click to expand...

I want to give more rep, but the rep tool objects to multiple applications for a single post. Sad face.

KaizoMK said:
How many people have complained that bounty hunting got nerfed as a profession, when it in fact got massive buffs and some much needed changes? Granted, it's good for them that they did, because their mistake gets pointed out to them and they realize that you have to go out and hunt now, and that it's more profitable AND more fun than RES farming.
Click to expand...

How DARE someone come along and find something fun that you disagree with! The audacity! The shameless impudence and temerity of those terrible blackguards! Someone should write a long, irrelevant post condemning those villains!
 
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Eros

Eros
Mostly agree - the fun part when looking at the comments of gamers is

1) Everyone is a self appointed expert
2) No one is willing to entertain the possibility that they may be wrong

Iv seen out right flaws of logic being argued and it is extremely funny to read. Iv seen people make statements that are just flat out irrelevant or wrong, and then build it up to be a whole page of opinion.

Mostly this comes in the form of people doing comparisons with the older Elite titles... one even suggesting that "They didn't make game breaking changes to the older Elite series, they where careful with those" Which is weird for me, since... well best of my knowledge those games where released, patched once or twice but other than that didn't get any changes at all. I know because I played them.

To me it is like listening to people rant about something they know at the 5% level but want to project that they know at the 95% level... kind of like people who never played any games throughout the whole of the 90s, because, you know, back in the 90s playing video games made you unpopular... but now Little billy XBox is popular OH yeah you are an expert on what is good, and what games should/should not be, and you can project your gaming history back to the day you where born. Another anecdote being the kid who classes him/herself as a programmer and software developer because he/she has used a toolkit or software development kit/environment. Making comments about how everything older than Python is useless... its like... oh please!

Sometimes drives me mad... but... i try and show it rarely. There is not enough time in the day to express/point out flaws and inconstancies in gamers opinions.

Rep for ya
 

Tarman

Tarman
KaizoMK said:
Heh, right? I think what I mean to say is that I couldn't make a good game or even produce a proper formula. But I feel a lot of people make complaints without even considering what they're asking or that they're the problem. How many people have complained that bounty hunting got nerfed as a profession, when it in fact got massive buffs and some much needed changes? Granted, it's good for them that they did, because their mistake gets pointed out to them and they realize that you have to go out and hunt now, and that it's more profitable AND more fun than RES farming.
Click to expand...

I had a good joust recently with someone disappointed in this change, and learned some things; had to adjust my own worldview a bit in the light of new information. Fun is completely subjective, for one thing; you can talk about how the mechanics themselves are weak and sad, but not really the enjoyment of players of those mechanics. Many people, though not me personally, thought RES farming was great fun and good profit. Did it make for a great game? Maybe not. Doesn't mean people didn't enjoy it.

I think the game is more logically consistent with the newest iteration, so for the game itself I think it's an improvement, but that doesn't always translate into fun for all and sundry. The 10% refit charge was also logically consistent, but it was going to remove outfitting fun if it were just folded back into the game without any other gameplay elements around it.

Despite your faith in them, FD has a history of adding problems without adding solutions; like when they were going to add in marked cargo without a way to unmark it even on the drawing board. Their PP reward mechanics; which were originally the mechanics that countless other games ditched a decade ago because they're bad reward systems. FD are far from infallible.
 
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