Pure Trading ships (builds and escape tactics)

[Ziljan]

I have been hearing people say lots of disparaging things about Lakon ships in 2.1. In particular the T7 gets a lot of bad press (always has), but really all of the ships below are quite capable ships.

Each of these ships is extremely tough, and capable of escaping multiple attacks from Elite NPCs. Please feel free to share these builds with your buddies who don't read the forums

T6

653 MJ of health (2.5 times my Viper)
85 % of the 3A enhanced Viper speed - when fully loaded!!
92 T Cargo Capacity

http://coriolis.io/outfit/type_6_transporter/23A4A4A2D3A2D2Ckpkp00030204040345020127.Iw1-kA==.Aw1-kA==?bn=Blockade%20Runner

Escape tactic:

2 pips SYS
4 pips ENG


boosting away
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
charge FSD highwake (only use low wake if the enemy is lower mass, or >2.5 km away)
if shields drop use Silent Running and heat sinks to force NPC to lose target lock
use 1-4 taps of side thrusters to move away from last known position



T7

930 MJ of health (1.2 times my Vulture)
208 T Cargo Capacity

http://coriolis.io/outfit/type_7_tr...03030505040403452727.Iw18aQ==.Aw18aQ==?bn=T-7

Escape tactic:

4 pips SYS
2 pips ENG

boosting away
fire chaff
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
drop 1T of cargo into the mix (some NPCs slow down to inspect)
charge FSD highwake (only use low wake if the enemy is lower mass, or >2.5 km away)



T9

1335 MJ of Health (115% that of my FDL)
400 T Cargo Capacity

https://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_heavy/1pktsFklndpsif6kpkpkpkpkp04040404074k05040303020227.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==?bn=Beefy%20Trader

Escape tactic:

4 pips SYS
2 pips ENG

boosting away
fire chaff
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
drop 1T of cargo into the mix (some NPCs slow down to inspect)
charge FSD highwake (low wake is OK for most ships, unless it's a player!)

---

VIDEOS DEMONSTRATING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MINES VS SMALL SHIPS (Created by CMDR Henri):

Mines are perhaps a little TOO effective at the moment.

---

[video=youtube;jqDsRLXkm4Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqDsRLXkm4Q[/video]
[video=youtube;6YZoBY84xu0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YZoBY84xu0[/video]
[video=youtube;tkN3bQ_jlrk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkN3bQ_jlrk[/video]
[video=youtube;3QhjxpY0SCw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QhjxpY0SCw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[DukeIronHand]

Excellent post sir!
And I am mighty happy to see one of my favorite ships (the mighty Type 6) get some love and attention.
Your build is the same as mine minus the HRP.
And since you mention it (and I have never tried them) do mines discourage pursuit in actual practice? It would seem to make sense but I can't find an answer.
+1

 

[Ziljan]

Excellent post sir!
And I am mighty happy to see one of my favorite ships (the mighty Type 6) get some love and attention.
Your build is the same as mine minus the HRP.
And since you mention it (and I have never tired them) do mines discourage pursuit in actual practice? It would seem to make sense but I can't find an answer.
+1

With the new tailing "AI", you can stand still and small ships will fly right into your jet wash. 777Driver has posted that this works, and he flies primarily T9's. Should work even better on the smaller lakons.

 

[Edelgard von Rhein]

As someone who has flown all these ships in Open (although it was 1.1 when I last flew a T7), thanks for highlighting that they are still potentially useful. I haven't modified my T6/T9 or flown them in 2.1 and was wondering how viable they might prove: I have been able to survive interdictions by the ubiquitous Elite FASs in my Python but I'm not sure how the T*s would fare. So, a couple of questions:
1) Why the military armour and HRP on the T6 when you need to get away fast and keep your shields? Is the speed difference too little to matter? (I have used reinforced armour on my T6 before but not military).
2) Why the A-rated thrusters on the T9? I use D-rated (although this is partly because I need the jump range) and although the A-rated version will be more manoeuvrable, it's not going to make much of a difference in an interdiction. I tank and fire up the FSD when it's charged, if the interdicting ship(s) needs running from (see below).
3) I've never seen a NPC hit a mine - do they alter course to avoid them or do they plough through them and take damage? My T9 was able to deal with pairs of vipers/cobras in 1.4 (the last time I used it for more than an hour or two) using medium beam turrets and small gimballed weapons. Even when they first came out, the old AI in a FAS could rip through my shields quickly, though (thankfully I was able to high-wake in time when it happened).
4) The shield MJs you quote in the post are not the same as given on the top of the builds in Coriolis; am I reading it wrong? (I see 148/130/202 for T6/T7/T9) It also looks like you have downsized the T9s shield - I think I use the size 6 compartment in mine.
.
One of the impacts of the interdiction frequency, regardless of survivability, is that rares trading is now not going to be fun - but it would be nice to know that an Asp/T6 can still make it work, potentially.

 

[Ziljan]

1) Why the military armour and HRP on the T6 when you need to get away fast and keep your shields? Is the speed difference too little to matter? (I have used reinforced armour on my T6 before but not military).

The top speed with fully loaded cargo bay is not fast enought to escape some ships, so you have to be prepared to take a beating. If you get attacked by an Elite DBS or Cobra, you need to make sure your internal modules and drives are protected with 25-50% damage resistance.

2) 2) Why the A-rated thrusters on the T9? I use D-rated (although this is partly because I need the jump range) and although the A-rated version will be more manoeuvrable, it's not going to make much of a difference in an interdiction. I tank and fire up the FSD when it's charged, if the interdicting ship(s) needs running from (see below).

That was a snafu. Was supposed to have D rated thrusters. Thanks for pointing it out. Fixing. The reason it was on there was because A rated is nice because every little bit of speed and agility helps when trading. Faster ships make more CR/hr. But in 2.1, there are better places to put your MJ, you're right.

3) I've never seen a NPC hit a mine - do they alter course to avoid them or do they plough through them and take damage? My T9 was able to deal with pairs of vipers/cobras in 1.4 (the last time I used it for more than an hour or two) using medium beam turrets and small gimballed weapons. Even when they first came out, the old AI in a FAS could rip through my shields quickly, though (thankfully I was able to high-wake in time when it happened).

The shock mines cause them to miss if their shots and slowing them down if they hit them. Knocking them to one side. Kind of like for the force shells mod from engineers.

1
4) The shield MJs you quote in the post are not the same as given on the top of the builds in Coriolis; am I reading it wrong? (I see 148/130/202 for T6/T7/T9) It also looks like you have downsized the T9s shield - I think I use the size 6 compartment in mine.

The MJ are shields + hull. And 5A because 32T of cargo for 18Mj of shields is a bad trade.

 

[777Driver]

And 5A because 32T of cargo for 18Mj of shields is a bad trade.

I think you might be missing the fact that the boosters add a multiplier to the base shield, also 4 pips in 6A's will be a lot better than 4 pips in 5A's, I wouldn't run with less that 6A, personally I go with the 7A in a T9 since I fight back.

This is the bare minimum I would use - No Elite NPC will get through this with 4 pips in SYS during an escape - https://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_h...40303020227.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==?bn=Beefy Trader

 

[Ziljan]

I think you might be missing the fact that the boosters add a multiplier to the base shield, also 4 pips in 6A's will be a lot better than 4 pips in 5A's, I wouldn't run with less that 6A, personally I go with the 7A in a T9 since I fight back.

This is the bare minimum I would use - No Elite NPC will get through this with 4 pips in SYS during an escape - https://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_h...40303020227.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==?bn=Beefy Trader

It really depends if the repair costs are cheaper than the money I'd make on the 32 T

Oh, and you'll note, I only use 1 shield booster in my build because chaff and point defense seem to help so much vs smaller ships. When I tested going into low sec with my T6, having 2 PDs was like having 4 shield boosters. And they kept helping if the shields dropped. Ensuring that I survived when caught with my pants down. Missiles are the new disabling meta imo.

 

[Bacalao]

Great stuff.
-
Couple things, you forgot to put mine launchers on your T6 build .
-
Concerning the T9 build; unfortunately if I'm going to spend 200million on a ship, it won't be a T9....I'd just go with the anaconda for increased safety, range, handling and offense...T class ships need a buff. Here, for example, is an anaconda with similar or better survivability (and far more customizability), but for 80-90 million less.
-
In other words, by the time you make a T9 worth it, it isn't worth it because there are other ships that can trade equally or better for cheaper, not to mention do everything else much, much better.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Interesting about the missles.
I have played quite a bit of 2.1 but have not had a lot of issues (or unwanted contact) with the AI/NPC's but I try to avoid trouble and did just do a career restart about a week ago. Are NPC's the new missle carriers or human Cmdr's?
I play primarily Solo due to my crappy internet connection.

 

[Ziljan]

Great stuff.

Concerning the T9 build; unfortunately if I'm going to spend 200million on a ship, it won't be a T9....I'd just go with the anaconda for increased safety, range, handling and offense...T class ships need a buff. Here, for example, is an anaconda with similar or better survivability (and far more customizability), but for 80-90 million less.

Very true, but some people (like me) will always prefer a T9 on general principle. Just not a fan of the Bananaconda. And the Conda doesn't need build instructions. Just stack Shield Boosters and even a 4A shield, and you'll be fine.

Are NPC's the new missle carriers or human Cmdr's?
I play primarily Solo due to my crappy internet connection.

There are lots of good builds. For both NPCs and CMDRs. Missiles can be especially harmful to traders though due to their disabling attacks.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Thanks.
I was flying a T6 in 2.1 before I did my restart. Now I have a Cobra III (for missions) and a DBS (for BH'ing as a change of pace) I just bought in my new career. We'll see how it all shakes out in 2.1 but I have an itching to make the T6 my third ship...which I always do in every career anyway for small ship bulk trading. Besides I am anxious to see the Shock Mines in action.

 

[Fox White]

I do hate seeing these defense posts for the T series as I personally feel it is conformation that FD does not need to seriously address ships. My problem starts with every ship release 1.0 has been a combat focused ship.
For arguments sake the Cutter is better trade ship than a flag ship but that was not the intention. The DBX as well has "Explorer" in the name yet is much more a combat ship in design because of its lack of internals not to mention its heavy use as an AI pirate. The rest are obvious combat/ combat scout ships. Even with those 2 on the side there is 12 combat ships released.

On to the T-series there are many builds to make it "Viable" that I have personally used with much success but like the silent running build I doubt these builds were by design. Since v1.0 there has been many changes and trade ships (the T series) have been left behind. Furthermore the builds used to make the T7 and T9 can be used on their multirole counterparts much more effectivly. In example the Trade conda with a simlar build has a jump range of +7 ly as well as the manuverability and speed advantages for a negligible amount more credits.

I dont mean to sound overly passionate or to completly ignore the great work that people like 777driver have done researching trade ships because I highly respect those opinons. I just feel the need to point out the trade ships are useable but are far from balanced and it would be nice to civily show that to FD with out hate speeches. T series could even be turned into a M (mining) series with little amount of work. Better armour and a larger spot for sheilds Minus some internals and jump range to add some variation but FD has not done this because they are focused on combat.

 

[777Driver]

I do hate seeing these defense posts for the T series as I personally feel it is conformation that FD does not need to seriously address ships. My problem starts with every ship release 1.0 has been a combat focused ship.
For arguments sake the Cutter is better trade ship than a flag ship but that was not the intention. The DBX as well has "Explorer" in the name yet is much more a combat ship in design because of its lack of internals not to mention its heavy use as an AI pirate. The rest are obvious combat/ combat scout ships. Even with those 2 on the side there is 12 combat ships released.

On to the T-series there are many builds to make it "Viable" that I have personally used with much success but like the silent running build I doubt these builds were by design. Since v1.0 there has been many changes and trade ships (the T series) have been left behind. Furthermore the builds used to make the T7 and T9 can be used on their multirole counterparts much more effectivly. In example the Trade conda with a simlar build has a jump range of +7 ly as well as the manuverability and speed advantages for a negligible amount more credits.

I dont mean to sound overly passionate or to completly ignore the great work that people like 777driver have done researching trade ships because I highly respect those opinons. I just feel the need to point out the trade ships are useable but are far from balanced and it would be nice to civily show that to FD with out hate speeches. T series could even be turned into a M (mining) series with little amount of work. Better armour and a larger spot for sheilds Minus some internals and jump range to add some variation but FD has not done this because they are focused on combat.

Keep in mind that we haven't really had a proper trade update yet, it will eventually come, in the same way I believe a big explorer update will eventually drop. The Panther Clipper is confirmed, the devs have confirmed other freighters are in the pipeline.

Personally I am happy with what we have as far as freighter choices go, the T9 is supposed to be a basic freighter, nothing special, can still punch it's way out of a bad situation whilst hauling 400 tonnes, it's an underdog, that's why I prefer flying it. The Anaconda is the obvious choice for an easy ride, the Panther and similar freighters will likely dwarf the Cutter as far as payload goes.

Am using a separate T9 as a mining ship, it holds around 400 tonnes and has no issues holding up in a fight against any NPC's, engineer mods now allow us to transform any ship. The Anaconda excels at mining - I'm just not too fond of being stuck on the bridge of a supertanker when flying in virtual reality.

 

[Ziljan]

...the T9 is supposed to be a basic freighter, nothing special, can still punch it's way out of a bad situation whilst hauling 400 tonnes...

Am using a separate T9 as a mining ship, it holds around 400 tonnes and has no issues holding up in a fight against any NPC's, engineer mods now allow us to transform any ship.

I've updated the OP with a 400T build. You're right it's definitely a more flexible build with that much cargo space, you could use it in more situations. The build above was for pure safety and cargo capacity.

 

[SeeZaa]

I have been hearing people say lots of disparaging things about Lakon ships in 2.1. In particular the T7 gets a lot of bad press (always has), but really all of the ships below are quite capable ships.

Each of these ships is extremely tough, and capable of escaping multiple attacks from Elite NPCs. Please feel free to share these builds with your buddies who don't read the forums

Spoiler

T6

653 MJ of health (2.5 times my Viper)
85 % of the 3A enhanced Viper speed - when fully loaded!!
92 T Cargo Capacity

http://coriolis.io/outfit/type_6_transporter/23A4A4A2D3A2D2Ckpkp00030204040345020127.Iw1-kA==.Aw1-kA==?bn=Blockade%20Runner

Escape tactic:

2 pips SYS
4 pips ENG


boosting away
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
charge FSD highwake (only use low wake if the enemy is lower mass, or >2.5 km away)
if shields drop use Silent Running and heat sinks to force NPC to lose target lock
use 1-4 taps of side thrusters to move away from last known position



T7

930 MJ of health (1.2 times my Vulture)
208 T Cargo Capacity

http://coriolis.io/outfit/type_7_tr...03030505040403452727.Iw18aQ==.Aw18aQ==?bn=T-7

Escape tactic:

4 pips SYS
2 pips ENG

boosting away
fire chaff
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
drop 1T of cargo into the mix (some NPCs slow down to inspect)
charge FSD highwake (only use low wake if the enemy is lower mass, or >2.5 km away)



T9

1335 MJ of Health (115% that of my FDL)
400 T Cargo Capacity

https://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_heavy/1pktsFklndpsif6kpkpkpkpkp04040404074k05040303020227.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==?bn=Beefy%20Trader

Escape tactic:

4 pips SYS
2 pips ENG

boosting away
fire chaff
drop mines only during FSD cooldown
drop 1T of cargo into the mix (some NPCs slow down to inspect)
charge FSD highwake (low wake is OK for most ships, unless it's a player!)

great post Ziljan

*edit, now i have caught up.. great thread forming! hadn't realised the Panther had been confirmed 777Driver, im feeling somewhat excited about that, think i can scrape a T7 build together after these last 2 cg's and start trying to make credits.

 

[Fox White]

Keep in mind that we haven't really had a proper trade update yet, it will eventually come, in the same way I believe a big explorer update will eventually drop. The Panther Clipper is confirmed, the devs have confirmed other freighters are in the pipeline.

Personally I am happy with what we have as far as freighter choices go, the T9 is supposed to be a basic freighter, nothing special, can still punch it's way out of a bad situation whilst hauling 400 tonnes, it's an underdog, that's why I prefer flying it. The Anaconda is the obvious choice for an easy ride, the Panther and similar freighters will likely dwarf the Cutter as far as payload goes.

Am using a separate T9 as a mining ship, it holds around 400 tonnes and has no issues holding up in a fight against any NPC's, engineer mods now allow us to transform any ship. The Anaconda excels at mining - I'm just not too fond of being stuck on the bridge of a supertanker when flying in virtual reality.

To be honest I have a fear about the Panther Clipper being handicapped heavly but I am excited and those fears are completly unfounded. I hadnt heard about other freighters though. I do agree with you as far asthe T9 And T7 Being underdogs. Neither should be considered a dedicated fighter except for fun but being V 1.0 ships I feel they were given some silly balances. Disclaimer: my examples are not well understood by myself so they are open to interpetation but here they are. I set up an Anaconda and T9 with similar unladen weights but both with 7a Thusters and 6A FSD's. The jump ranges are similar enough but the thruster speeds are very different.

https://coriolis.io/outfit/anaconda/0pvtpFklndAsvf1---------------------------.Iw18ZlA=.Aw18ZlA=

https://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_heavy/0patpFklndssif4------------------.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==



You are right there has been no Traders update though I call a vote for a speculation thread!!! Anybody think player corporations will be a thing?

 

[R3DB3RD]

Great post.
This should be stickied somewhere.

It's working with what we have right now and that's the main thing.

If Eve Online is anything to go by, ships will be tweaked and retweaked and balanced and rebalanced as time goes by. Especially with new updates and new ships and ship classes. I think the new Ai really helps to reflect this. Before 2.1 all ships were kind of generic and multirole (for me anyway). Now we're starting to see specialisations and specific roles for ships.
I love it but hate it. Some of my favourite ships in Eve Online from an aesthetic point of view are absolutely useless for the things that I do.

Ultimately, use the tools available. That's what we got, right here right now.

 

[Stupid_hippy]

Just for the record as it's not a pure mobile warehouse, I'm actually quite happily killing the never ending stream of elite fdls and conda NPCs by flying my Cutter in a straight line and using an all mine build. Often at ranges of over 3k. Condas are easy, just match their speed. Fdls just mean i have to boost occasionally. No shock mines though because they throw the follower off that straight line. Stupid NPCs.

However, I also made a certain hogwarts graduate turn away in disgust from my boosty minelaying behavior as well,after he decided to have a go at me in Shinrarta, so it works on humans too.

 

[kofeyh]

I used a type-9 for mining for ages; shield boosters, decent shield and getting used to automatically selecting another system whilst you wait for the submission to kick in (this means you have an immediate escape option and it's just the spool up time for highwake + 5 seconds for FSD cool down. 7D thrusters to keep the mass down (and save some rebuy cost if the worst happens; you can't run, so there's no great advantage to A's).

I love boosting the type-9 through an asteroid field though. It's a stupid big bucket of bolts and about as sexy as a brick proverbial, but it's hard not to love it. I'm not surprised 777Driver continues to use one; they grow on you. Also that office chair in VR must be amazing.

 

[Phileosophos]

Let me tell you exactly why what you said about the T7 doesn't work. All it takes is one big ship interdicting you, and you're dead. You can't charge your FSD fast enough, and you can't dissipate the heat or use shield cells because of the heat. I've had that happen to me multiple times. You get caught by a FDS, Python, etc., and you're just dead. You can't shoot your way out, you can't run, all you can do is fail the mission(s), pay the fine(s), lose millions in cargo, and shell out your million or so re-buy. Ironically the T6 and T9 are better, but the T7 is a useless pig with the current interdiction/combat mechanics.