PvE Missions in a Viper Mk3

Elite in Exploration and Trade.. Now trying my hand at combat with seriously mixed results. I can handle the harmless and similar pirates well enough. Trouble starts on the higher level ones.. Focusing on Dangerous and Competent -- I just can't seem to out turn them and get on their six.. They always out turn me. Using down thrust with FA/Off but nothing seems to help. My thrusters are engineered to level 3 dirty with Sturdy Experimental..

Any help would be appreciated.

Rockflint
 
Down thrust while pitching down (with FA on) helps close the the circle. Good for when you can outturn your opponent. Down thrust while pitching up will widen the circle, good when your opponent can outturn you. Don't overdo it with widening the circle though otherwise you end up too far and in a jousting situation, which you don't want to be in a Viper, not enough shields to tank with.

FA off is a different game, one i don't tend to use except as a toggle when really needed.

Higher ranked opponents can be engineered, which is what makes it tricky, especially if you are not engineered.

In short, if you are being outturned, you need to change tactics.
 
Seems like boosting will cause an overshoot.. giving the opponent time to turn on my ship. I am trying to avoid jousting with larger ships.
 
Down thrust while pitching down (with FA on) helps close the the circle. Good for when you can outturn your opponent. Down thrust while pitching up will widen the circle, good when your opponent can outturn you. Don't overdo it with widening the circle though otherwise you end up too far and in a jousting situation, which you don't want to be in a Viper, not enough shields to tank with.

FA off is a different game, one i don't tend to use except as a toggle when really needed.

Higher ranked opponents can be engineered, which is what makes it tricky, especially if you are not engineered.

In short, if you are being outturned, you need to change tactics.
So Upthrust with pulling up to out-turn? That doesn't seem correct?? Hmm
 
If you are FA-off try to use blue zone as that will pivot your ship as fast as boost. I am pretty sure it is as quick anyway - certainly not that much difference that I bother using ever when I PvE. But I did boost turn all the time when I was FA-on.

Use drift to your advantage because you can keep your sights on the target even as they pass you :)
Down thrust while pitching down (with FA on) helps close the the circle. Good for when you can outturn your opponent. Down thrust while pitching up will widen the circle, good when your opponent can outturn you. Don't overdo it with widening the circle though otherwise you end up too far and in a jousting situation, which you don't want to be in a Viper, not enough shields to tank with.
^ this
I do this all the time. I have twin sticks so I pull both up or both down when I need to circle. I prefer to pull up because I can see better but I guess it is where the guns are.

You do get used to it to the point you can use fixed weapons. :)
 
So Upthrust with pulling up to out-turn? That doesn't seem correct?? Hmm

Yes, that works, but as i said, only if you you have as good as or a better turn rate than your opponent. Otherwise they will still run circles around up.

What you're also doing is closing the distance if your opponent is also pitching up. But if they can outturn you, then you're better off widening the circle and gaining distance (but as i said, not too much).

Also, 4 pips to ENG for better turn rage, and has been mentioned, blue zone.

Here, i've tried to visualize it for you.

Black line is just turning, red is thrusting up, green is thrusting down, all while pitching up

1653242496494.png
 
The Viper's rotationals are mediocre, but it has extremely strong vertical/lateral acceleration, use it.

FA off and using the cargo hatch to delay/interrupt boost can certainly work, but frankly, it's a lot of work and a huge pain in the ass in combat...as well as completely unnecessary against NPCs. If you have the thruster control to handle FA off well in a Viper, you have the thruster control to dance around NPCs with FA On.

Some examples of FA On PvE with a non-Engineered Viper III:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umokk5cMyvA

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WxGbDDjxM

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCDUrjUAxI

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7-ti2JbXpw


A fully Engineered Viper III can handle any wing of human NPCs, short of ATR.
 
Elite's combat doesn't work like you think it does. They designed it this way to try and do something about "turn war". And they very effectively addressed that. But it makes it non-intuitive. You cannot outfly the higher-ranked NPCs, don't even try. The trick is to do better with positioning and DPS. Higher-ranked NPCs will use high-DPS fixed weapons. You can't do anything against rails, but PAs are predictive and you can cause the NPC to miss. Make him miss more than you. Try to keep the range at a good distance for your weapons but not your enemy's and do not let the enemy ship float at a range that is bad for your weapons. If you are in a good zone, keep your guns on them when they defensively boost. NPCs will defensively boost in predictable ways and rarely set up lateral movement scenarios.

Anything over Expert will not let you outfly it and Expert only does some of the time. Stop concerning yourself with that. Get in practice of using FA/off to quickly face the enemy and prevent them from out-turning you.

Against players, movement becomes more of a thing, but the AI doesn't make mistakes so that's largely irrelevant. The important thing is to just make sure you don't let them have guns on you more often than you do on them.

A little tip from me to you, get on fixed weapons as fast as possible. The faster you switch to PAs, Rails, Frags, etc, the more comfortable and better you will be with Elite's combat. You should do it now while you're learning. If you build around gimbals, or even turrets (though turrets have a very important use where gimbals later on are really just about bad hardpoint convergence), then later on you may not enjoy fixed weapons and your DPS potential will suffer.

edit: but to that last point, if it's a dealbreaker for you then just use the gimbals and have fun
 
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The Viper's rotationals are mediocre, but it has extremely strong vertical/lateral acceleration, use it.

FA off and using the cargo hatch to delay/interrupt boost can certainly work, but frankly, it's a lot of work and a huge pain in the in combat...as well as completely unnecessary against NPCs. If you have the thruster control to handle FA off well in a Viper, you have the thruster control to dance around NPCs with FA On.

Some examples of FA On PvE with a non-Engineered Viper III:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umokk5cMyvA

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WxGbDDjxM

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCDUrjUAxI

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7-ti2JbXpw


A fully Engineered Viper III can handle any wing of human NPCs, short of ATR.
Can you show me how you do those 'deadly conda, two deadly cobras and six deadly eagles' Signal sources in massacre missions? Can't figure out how to do it in a viper myself. :/
 
Anything over Expert will not let you outfly it and Expert only does some of the time.

NPCs all have a sweet spot range where they will try to open up distance before attempting to turn into you; if you can control range closely enough, most will never be able to get a shot off after you insert yourself behind them. This has been a persistent hole in NPC AI. You can see this in the Incursion video I posted.

Frequently I can sit behind NPC as agile as higher ranked (Master all the way through Elite) Vultures in a Corvette, and about the only NPC ships I can't stay continually out of the firing arc of in an Engineered Viper are mid and upper ranked FASes, some Chieftains, and the rare Clipper. Most other NPCs don't have either the pitch rate or the boost acceleration to break away and turn in time.

Example:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIdOunjGr20


~500m is the sweet spot for most ships. If they can't get further away, they will just try to boost again to open up distance for another attempt, and most NPCs are too slow to do this, even against a Corvette (well an Engineered one), unless the pilot makes a mistake and overshoots (as I did at the end of that clip). Almost everything is too slow to break from an Engineered Viper, as it doesn't even need to boost to keep up with most boosting ships (but it can of course, and being able to interrup boost with the scoop means overshoots are rare, with some practice) and can simply trichord directly toward it's opponent at near full speed without even needing to turn.

It's been about a year since I tested this, but I haven't heard of any major NPC piloting overhaul in the interim and the basic pattern is as old as the game.

Can you show me how you do those 'deadly conda, two deadly cobras and six deadly eagles' Signal sources in massacre missions? Can't figure out how to do it in a viper myself. :/

Not with an unmodded Viper (doesn't have the staying power for such a group, at least not with me at the controls), but I could probably dust off my HOTAS, slap together an Engineered one, and record it. Could take a bit though as I've mostly been focused on surface stuff and my CMDRs ship assets are a mess.

In the meantime, I'd recommend trying to focus on the Anaconda first, as it should be fairly easy to get (and stay) close enough for you to block some incoming fire with it, or force the other hostile ships to shoot it, while staying out of the reach of it's weapons. After it goes down, the Eagles are the next priority as they should be considerably softer than the Cobras, but don't lag far behind in firepower; they also have a lowish boost speed and are easier to stay behind, despite their solid rotationals.

I would also recommend a hull-focused loadout (you can put ~1800 hull with good resists on a Viper III and still have a thermal resistant+low draw bi-weave and an MRP) as this will maximize both the offensive and defensive capabilities of the ship. Weapon wise, you'll want a feedback rail for countering Anaconda SCBs and coring out it's power plant, plus a corrosive weapon. Short-range weapons are very viable against NPCs.
 
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Interesting. Yeah you can plainly see the jukemove "I-don't-know-which-way-to-go" thing that you see in Competent and lower NPCs happen twice in that video. I thought this was purely intentional by Frontier on lower-skill AI ships.
 
Viper isn't an easy ship. A Vulture is much better to learn combat. Using a Vulture, FA off isn't really necesary against NPCs due to its agility. A Federal Assault ship is also not bad. It's a bit like a Vulture on steroids, but has a bit more drift due to its mass. Again, you can be lazy with a FAS in not having to use FA off to turn because it turns so fast without it.

A good tactic against jousting NPCs is to fly backwards while you protect yourself with chaff.

Whatever ship you use against NPCs, don't fit hull and module reinforcements. Instead fit as many shield boosters and Guardian shield reinforcements as you can unless you can't engineer your PP to the max.

You can see me using an unengineered Vulture to do massacre missions very successfully without using any advanced techniques in this video. Skip to 23:00 unless you want more details of load-outs and the missions themselves:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQcJ-9jVao
 
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