PvP PVP as a 'feature'...

[Roybe]

I don't understand this idea. Other than shooting at other PVP players...or not...what does the game give you for your trouble? Hours of PVE play to gain the funds to shoot at each other. More PVE time to get money to repair damage done to ships.

What I would like to see is a discussion of how PVP can be made into something that would rival other PVP games, where skill is needed, and losses don't require tons of time to return to your previous level of ship and credits.

I look at a game like Guild Wars 2 where they have a hardcore PVP crowd...and also a vibrant PVE/PVP concept where both sets of players can get together and have fun...and wonder if something along those lines can be created. What we have now...is not working...

 

[Chongo]

Hate admitting it but FD just isn't interested in designing for PvP. I mean, just look at the linear structure of ship progression. There's no viper like ship (in regard to size, shield/hull strength, agility, hitbox) with the dps/ distro of an fdl. It's +1 class module here, +1 module there. Almost totally linear - and it says a lot about the pvp potential in the game.

I've been saying these things for a long while now and it's clear FD just isn't moving in a direction to support PvP. Honestly, first they have to get someone with some notion of gameplay fun to start planning the CG's. It's so simple, so easy to source the effort from, and it's so underutilized. As far as I can tell it's mostly player groups pitching weird ideas amongst a murky semblance of plotline. And it ends up being nothing more than pvp'ers roaming around looking for other pvp'ers and ganking trade ships inbetween because they're honestly just bored. I'm not advocating this - it just is what CG's have become.

Repeating the same thing I've said for a year, but if FD just took a single perma-anarchy system, put 2 stations on either side of a 25 km thick asteroid belt, and then gave the place a reason to visit... a huge population of pvp'ers would just live there. We'd create our own gameplay, we already have our own bot system to track stats with - the game would be immensely simple to create. And if it's a graphics issue, we'd buy new cards to accommodate the huge rings. Just give us a playground. Not some external cqc nonsense - a hub in game for people to congregate. And if they're willing to put in ongoing effort, stage combat CGs there consistently. This game is a wonderful experiment in having no hub. Great notion, just lacking thought towards gameplay.

It is damn near that simple.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I don't understand this idea. Other than shooting at other PVP players...or not...what does the game give you for your trouble? Hours of PVE play to gain the funds to shoot at each other. More PVE time to get money to repair damage done to ships.

What I would like to see is a discussion of how PVP can be made into something that would rival other PVP games, where skill is needed, and losses don't require tons of time to return to your previous level of ship and credits.

I look at a game like Guild Wars 2 where they have a hardcore PVP crowd...and also a vibrant PVE/PVP concept where both sets of players can get together and have fun...and wonder if something along those lines can be created. What we have now...is not working...

I don't think you understand PvP in Elite at all, or you are just trying to flame the subforum. Lost of credits IS INTEGRAL PART of Elite Dangerous PvP, this give you meaning to Not give up a fight in the middle and give you "weight" to keep your weapons sharp. You don't want to lose your ship not only because of PRIDE but because you'll lose something that you worked on it, and that's is something missing in most PvP esque games like Battlefield and Gears of wars, you can re-spawn and die over and over with 0 consequence.

While meaning is something that really lack in Elite universe, it also lacks on the PvE crowd... it's not something that is EXCLUSIVE for PvP, C'mon the only reason you play the game is to get CREDITS, there nothing besides that, unless you go by Role playing and supporting a Faction or a Power. Other than that you can make your self you own set of goals. Once i heard of a CMDR that is involved in removing all the Anarchy systems from the bubble. I portrait my self as a pirate with a hidden purpose behind my stealing and plundering. So yes PvP dont have much means to an End But so does PvE if you really think about it.

Greedy out.

 

[xondk]

I don't understand this idea. Other than shooting at other PVP players...or not...what does the game give you for your trouble? Hours of PVE play to gain the funds to shoot at each other. More PVE time to get money to repair damage done to ships.

What I would like to see is a discussion of how PVP can be made into something that would rival other PVP games, where skill is needed, and losses don't require tons of time to return to your previous level of ship and credits.

I look at a game like Guild Wars 2 where they have a hardcore PVP crowd...and also a vibrant PVE/PVP concept where both sets of players can get together and have fun...and wonder if something along those lines can be created. What we have now...is not working...

At the end of the day, Elite Dangerous, despite what many 'PvPers' claim, is not a PvP related game, because to the game there is absolutely no difference if you kill a player or npc. Arena, is a PvP game with clear goal.

 

[rad_pi]

The game is what you make it. Just because the developers are focused on the PvE experience doesn't mean there aren't loads of player groups that are PvP focused and hold events and detailed BGS/roleplay PvP'ing. Just scratch below the surface and you'll find other people who will make it rewarding.

 

[Roybe]

I don't think you understand PvP in Elite at all, or you are just trying to flame the subforum. Lost of credits IS INTEGRAL PART of Elite Dangerous PvP, this give you meaning to Not give up a fight in the middle and give you "weight" to keep your weapons sharp. You don't want to lose your ship not only because of PRIDE but because you'll lose something that you worked on it, and that's is something missing in most PvP esque games like Battlefield and Gears of wars, you can re-spawn and die over and over with 0 consequence.

While meaning is something that really lack in Elite universe, it also lacks on the PvE crowd... it's not something that is EXCLUSIVE for PvP, C'mon the only reason you play the game is to get CREDITS, there nothing besides that, unless you go by Role playing and supporting a Faction or a Power. Other than that you can make your self you own set of goals. Once i heard of a CMDR that is involved in removing all the Anarchy systems from the bubble. I portrait my self as a pirate with a hidden purpose behind my stealing and plundering. So yes PvP dont have much means to an End But so does PvE if you really think about it.

Greedy out.

Actually, this is something that I think needs addressing. PVP has no meaningful inputs into any part of the game...and means that I can't be bothered to play. I COULD make millions of credits for the express purpose of PVP...but the lack of real input into the game is what a lot of PVP players that have left the game felt was lacking....real reasons for people to fight against each other face to face. Why should I bother? the PVE trophy chase is the real basis of the game....

I play Elite to do a few things....continue to maintain a system....BGS. To maintain a Power...PowerPlay. To make money...missions and trade. All these actions make differences to the game and connect my actions to the game. The reason I play a game....

There is definitely a personal achievement to beating another player...but, honestly, why bother?

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

At the end of the day, Elite Dangerous, despite what many 'PvPers' claim, is not a PvP related game, because to the game there is absolutely no difference if you kill a player or npc. Arena, is a PvP game with clear goal.

That makes absolute no sense, and now its not true also, because if you kill a CMDR now you get a bounty across the bubble. which can make some pretty interesting moments. so while I also don't believe Elite is a PvP game (it also is not a PvE game) some changes are coming on both sides, but in the end BOTH sides of this coin still very swallow and not much developed.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

PVP in elite is meaningless, there is nothing to gain except pride. Its an end game with its own longevity.

The problem with Elite overall is that it doesn't know if it is a single player game or a multiplayer, it should decide once and for all what does it want to be, and develop the gameplay accordingly, it shouldn't do both.

We have 3 modes of play combined with p2p architecture, meaningful PVP such as in power play or BGS cannot exist when people can hide in Solo or block you to prevent instancing.

In order to have meaningful PVP FDEV MUST remove the 3 modes, or make a PVP galaxy and a PVE galaxy as separate worlds, they cannot co exist from reasons mentioned above. It has been discussed over and over throughout the 3 years this game has been out, there is no point talking about it farther, FDEV are not going to change their architecture and PVP will be left behind just for 1 V 1 or wing fights which all are MEANINGLESS in terms of game play.

 

[Roybe]

The game is what you make it. Just because the developers are focused on the PvE experience doesn't mean there aren't loads of player groups that are PvP focused and hold events and detailed BGS/roleplay PvP'ing. Just scratch below the surface and you'll find other people who will make it rewarding.

...and what good does that PVP play do for the BGS? How do you make money with PVP play? Shouldn't you receive some kind of reward for these activities?

 

[Aashenfox]

PVP in elite is meaningless, there is nothing to gain except pride. Its an end game with its own longevity.

The problem with Elite overall is that it doesn't know if it is a single player game or a multiplayer, it should decide once and for all what does it want to be, and develop the gameplay accordingly, it shouldn't do both.

We have 3 modes of play combined with p2p architecture, meaningful PVP such as in power play or BGS cannot exist when people can hide in Solo or block you to prevent instancing.

In order to have meaningful PVP FDEV MUST remove the 3 modes, or make a PVP galaxy and a PVE galaxy as separate worlds, they cannot co exist from reasons mentioned above. It has been discussed over and over throughout the 3 years this game has been out, there is no point talking about it farther, FDEV are not going to change their architecture and PVP will be left behind just for 1 V 1 or wing fights which all are MEANINGLESS in terms of game play.

Well said.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

...and what good does that PVP play do for the BGS? How do you make money with PVP play? Shouldn't you receive some kind of reward for these activities?

You dont, PVP is MEANINGLESS in terms of game play, you will not gain a single credit only spend rebuy/repair costs.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

There is definitely a personal achievement to beating another player...but, honestly, why bother?

Well, for this i can only say one single thing, Elite is rather non realistic on the PvE side, and that for me is where all devils are in .

I mean, how can you make more money transporting 10 tons of Silver , than your contractor? I mean is total bull crap. they even pay you ABOVE the total value of the cargo.

Endless streams of Pirates coming into an area with 20 + cops. and even on a eagle trying to kill a trader or you. that makes literal no sense, they just don't have common sense.

Also on the topic of pirates... how many pirates can a system have on super cruise and no cop interdict them?

Also on the topic of COPS... how can you evade a Cop scan and not become a suspect?


This is just a few things that inflate the "credits" for PvE and make PvP less profitable.


So in the end the problem is not the PvP not paying much... it's quite the contrary! It's PvE that is overly inflated!

 

[Roybe]

You dont, PVP is MEANINGLESS in terms of game play, you will not gain a single credit only spend rebuy/repair costs.

Since it is being considered a feature of the game, shouldn't it?

 

[Roybe]

Well, for this i can only say one single thing, Elite is rather non realistic on the PvE side, and that for me is where all devils are in .

I mean, how can you make more money transporting 10 tons of Silver , than your contractor? I mean is total bull crap. they even pay you ABOVE the total value of the cargo.

Endless streams of Pirates coming into an area with 20 + cops. and even on a eagle trying to kill a trader or you. that makes literal no sense, they just don't have common sense.

Also on the topic of pirates... how many pirates can a system have on super cruise and no cop interdict them?

Also on the topic of COPS... how can you evade a Cop scan and not become a suspect?


This is just a few things that inflate the "credits" for PvE and make PvP less profitable.


So in the end the problem is not the PvP not paying much... it's quite the contrary! It's PvE that is overly inflated!

...and this is my point, really. Don't you think there should be some kind of equity between the two playstyles? My most disappointing understanding of this game was that PVP didn't matter...and if you PVP, and want to get to a 'win' state (CG's, Powerplay, BGS) you could not PVP your way there...and were overall a detriment to the goals stated...since you could have been moving the PVE trophies rather than not contributing.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

In fact FDEV discourages PVP, in power play (FDEVs excuse for meaningful PVP) killing a cmdr will give 1 merit, while killing NPCs - 30 merits, why is that? same reason you cap at 1mil per cmdr bounty. They are scared of exploits, its not like this game has no exploits, whats another one?

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

...and this is my point, really. Don't you think there should be some kind of equity between the two playstyles? My most disappointing understanding of this game was that PVP didn't matter...and if you PVP, and want to get to a 'win' state (CG's, Powerplay, BGS) you could not PVP your way there...and were overall a detriment to the goals stated...since you could have been moving the PVE trophies rather than not contributing.

Well I kind of like the Player = NPC the problem is that there's way too much NPCs , and they are too easy and too cheap. If i was to "save" the game i would make every NPC harder and much more worthy killing... But at the same time dial the spawn number way down.. making space more expanse, and every dot in the radar more valuable. right now they are cannon fodder. at the same time that an NPC bounty could be higher a player bounty goes up also. making it more viable. also cargo would jump in the market to cover the inflation we have now-days. this means piracy is more interesting and with that bounties are issued more often , and bounty hunter live better. so in the end this game really need is...

Fix the DEFLATION of it values.

INCREASE bounties all across the board.
INCREASE cargo prices.
INCREASE variation of prices.
INCREASE fines.
KEEP the same value of the missions. (mostly)

 

[Chongo]

The game is what you make it. Just because the developers are focused on the PvE experience doesn't mean there aren't loads of player groups that are PvP focused and hold events and detailed BGS/roleplay PvP'ing. Just scratch below the surface and you'll find other people who will make it rewarding.

Yeah, but there are simple solutions like I outlined above that don't require a hell of a lot of effort on FD's part. I say this having run the PvP League as well as helping run GCI in the past. I get what we can do on our own for pvp because I've frankly done more of it than most folks playing this game. The assets we have to work with are totally contrived most of the time, and they work, but it'd be great to get a couple little things to give us some independence to inject gameplay.

Seriously, they should just consider simple solutions. Weekly combat oriented CG's, put in a simple variation for PvP. Or give us my aforementioned playground. If FD were to do that than we could handle the gameplay side of things using our own bots/ trackers/ scoreboards. I don't expect them to put a lot of effort towards pvp so we need to outline goals that will be easy for them to implement. Heck, just give us a single droppable unsellable item that could be scooped up after a player is destroyed and we'd have capture the flag style events for months. Low effort high yield... all the while getting us away from the CG's in open that the pvp community effectively destroys whenever it's bored.

And to xondk... cqc is not a fun game and saying that ED isn't a pvp game isn't constructive. Again, cqc is not a fun game for pvp. It has no traction, the combat model isn't that good, the variations are limited, and it can't sustain us for very long. They should drop it altogether or inject it into the main game so it becomes a natural hub. It's obvious PvP is not FD's focus and I'm the first to admit it. But I'm trying to come up with low effort solutions for FD. This is constructive. If you're anti-pvp, just be quiet, get out of the way, and go advocate for what you think is important for FD to be working on elsewhere. Like improving mobius or whatever is important to your playstyle and personal comfortzone.

 

[Roybe]

Well I kind of like the Player = NPC the problem is that there's way too much NPCs , and they are too easy and too cheap. If i was to "save" the game i would make every NPC harder and much more worthy killing... But at the same time dial the spawn number way down.. making space more expanse, and every dot in the radar more valuable. right now they are cannon fodder. at the same time that an NPC bounty could be higher a player bounty goes up also. making it more viable. also cargo would jump in the market to cover the inflation we have now-days. this means piracy is more interesting and with that bounties are issued more often , and bounty hunter live better. so in the end this game really need is...

Fix the DEFLATION of it values.

INCREASE bounties all across the board.
INCREASE cargo prices.
INCREASE variation of prices.
INCREASE fines.
KEEP the same value of the missions. (mostly)

Player bounties are useless to the PVP crowd, until those carrying the bounty are guaranteed to be somewhere the bounty can be collected. Increasing NPC bounties work for those that are combat oriented...

Not sure what you mean by 'cargo prices'...mission payouts are probably still going to be higher than market prices...anyone needing a part/commodity will pay large premiums to receive those to those that can provide them....Fed Ex charges 10-15x's the cost to move something using regualar post...and I know many places that have paid more for fast shipping that a part or commodity was worth.

Wider ranges of pricing can mean higher profits...means more money being made even quicker.

Increased fines....marginal difference...

And 'thinning out' the NPC's means that the PVP players would have to work even harder to make ends meet....and destroy anything that is left of piracy.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

This may well be the best idea I have seen on the forums. Ever.

Well I have some ideas of "Unreal" tournaments in mind... but I don't have the will power to make them happen.

One of my ideas is a Flag ship battle 2 anacondas stationary over a distance of 10 Km.
One called "RED one" and the other "BLUE one" each team should be made of 10-20 eagles very single one having a RED or BLUE plus a random number.

And so it goes. the first team that brings the anaconda enemy anaconda to 50% health wins.

NO respawn is available , and engineering for the eagles is Ok..

That would make an AMAZING fightem'up game!

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Player bounties are useless to the PVP crowd, until those carrying the bounty are guaranteed to be somewhere the bounty can be collected. Increasing NPC bounties work for those that are combat oriented...

Not sure what you mean by 'cargo prices'...mission payouts are probably still going to be higher than market prices...anyone needing a part/commodity will pay large premiums to receive those to those that can provide them....Fed Ex charges 10-15x's the cost to move something using regualar post...and I know many places that have paid more for fast shipping that a part or commodity was worth.

Wider ranges of pricing can mean higher profits...means more money being made even quicker.

Increased fines....marginal difference...

And 'thinning out' the NPC's means that the PVP players would have to work even harder to make ends meet....and destroy anything that is left of piracy.

I'm starting to think you are trying to make excuses than anything else.

Cargo prices : Palladium = 13.000 Cr. new price Palladium = 52.000 Cr.
Average profit: old = 3K per Ton, New = 12k Per ton.

Haulage mission 200K CR to transport 10 Palladium. (10x 52k = 520k)

get that?!