PvP - Do we need to more correctly use the term PvR?

[NeilF]

PvP to me implies an orchestrated combat sitatuation between two (or more) players for some reason/ingame purpose? Something interesting and exciting... Now consider what mechanics ED offers where it results in the above? I think you'd be hard pressed to think of many.

I'd say all too often what people therefore end up calling PvP in ED, is a basically a rather embarrassingly simple alternative, PvR... Player vs Random player (who more than likely isn't even interested in PvP at the time, yet alone outfitted for it).


So I'd suggest most of the time we use "PvP" when discussing ED, we're actually being generous, and simply overlooking the fact that after two years, and numerous development allocations in various directions, many core gameplay elements have not moved forwards. And this included PvP. So consider, after all this time and even dedicated development time put into projects to orchestrate/offer PvP combat (unfortunately in a different game), how PvP in ED is (still) generally someone interested in PvP just roaming around most likely with no in game purpose/reason, interdicting people at random who most likely are not interested in combat at the time, and then probabaly opening fire on them... Indeed, what alternative does the game really offer if you're after "PvP"?

How is it we're so tolerant with how low this bar is, we'll accept this rather pointless/empty gameplay, and term it "PvP" as if it's somehow purposeful, interesting and productive?

Let's call most of the PvP in ED what it is, PvR!


When FD finally put some more involved and interesting combat scenarios and mechanics in ED, and I can utilise them to find involved and interest combat situation with/against other CMDRs (or NPCs), to fight for some purpose/reason, then we'll have PvP. But at the moment, lets not be so forgiving as to describe most of what's going on in ED as PvP...

 

[Wasp0]

How about the term 'GvR'.....Don't think it even needs an explanation Neil, what the G stands for!

 

[StiTch]

Say what now?

PvP = Player versus player.

If two CMDRs fight or compete, and it's assumed both are in fact humans and not bots, then there is one player against another player.

If that's random, orchestrated, event based, ganking...it's a player against another player = PvP.

There are lots of things to overconfuse but why confuse this to make a point?

 

[goemon]

"PvP to me implies an orchestrated combat sitatuation between two (or more) players for some reason/ingame purpose? "

doesn't imply it to me. i consider racing against each other as well as player-versus-player. or blockade running in open.

what most people name "PvP" is non-consensual or consensual PvP-COMBAT to me.

 

[NeilF]

Say what now?

PvP = Player versus player.

If two CMDRs fight or compete, and it's assumed both are in fact humans and not bots, then there is one player against another player.

If that's random, orchestrated, event based, ganking...it's a player against another player = PvP.

There are lots of things to overconfuse but why confuse this to make a point?

"PvP to me implies an orchestrated combat sitatuation between two (or more) players for some reason/ingame purpose? "

doesn't imply it to me. i consider racing against each other as well as player-versus-player. or blockade running in open.

what most people name "PvP" is non-consensual or consensual PvP-COMBAT to me.

And here were have examples of what I suggest are folks of seemingly just accepting the low-brow gameplay again... Making excuses for it in truth.

Can I ask... You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP (ie: test your combat skills against some other CMDRs)... What do you do? Undertake a mission to defend something? Attack something? Escort something? Recover something? A mission even just to go to an area and just simply fight other (enemy) ships? And you do this for a CR rewards? A reputation increase? To improve your Powers chance of taking over a system? And you undertake such mechanics in OPEN with the ability to do it alone, or in a Wing of friends, and knowing (most importantly) that what you've signed up for should mean you're going to face enemy CMDRs battling against you.... Go on then! Do that... Because that sound interesting to me!

Now for the reality... You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP... What do you do? How can you easily find "PvP" in the game? What meaningful mechanics are open to you? (1) Find some other players who want to fight and go and fight them in some random place, but in truth for no game purpose, and you've had to manually orchestrate all this, but hey ho. (2) Or use the main mechanic in the game. Interdict random other players and open fire.

So are you suggesting the PvP gameplay in ED is anything approaching an interesting/adequate level? Really?

What we have in ED is not PvP... It's simply enough to pretend there's some PvP content, where in truth there's basically next to none, and certainly nothing along the lines of what could/should be there (by now).


ps: goemon - It's interesting the blockade running you mention, as regards the CMDRs you are evading, these are people most likely out to interdict anyone for any reason, because? There are in reality no other avenues open to them to PvP? In truth they don't care what you're doing, what you're carrying to where and why... The easiest/main route they have to PvP is to go to where CMDRs are and randomly interdict and open fire! And this highlighting vapid gameplay because? If they're lucky (and of course interested) they my find an actual fight with a combat ship... But wouldn't that be better achieve by actual mechanic that offer it far more easily and far more constructively?

 

[StiTch]

And here were have examples of what I suggest are folks of seemingly just accepting the low-brow gameplay again... Making excuses for it in truth.

Can I ask... You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP (ie: test your combat skills against some other CMDRs)... What do you do? Undertake a mission to defend something? Attack something? Escort something? Recover something? A mission even just to go to an area and just simply fight other (enemy) ships? And you do this for a CR rewards? A reputation increase? To improve your Powers chance of taking over a system? And you undertake such mechanics in OPEN with the ability to do it alone, or in a Wing of friends, and knowing (most importantly) that what you've signed up for should mean you're going to face enemy CMDRs battling against you.... Go on then! Do that... Because that sound interesting to me!

Now for the reality... You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP... What do you do? How can you easily find "PvP" in the game? What meaningful mechanics are open to you? (1) Find some other players who want to fight and go and fight them in some random place, but in truth for no game purpose, and you've had to manually orchestrate all this, but hey ho. (2) Or use the main mechanic in the game. Interdict random other players and open fire.

So are you suggesting the PvP gameplay in ED is anything approaching an interesting/adequate level? Really?

What we have in ED is not PvP... It's simply enough to pretend there's some PvP content, where in truth there's basically next to none, and certainly nothing along the lines of what could/should be there (by now).


ps: goemon - It's interesting the blockade running you mention, as regards the CMDRs you are evading, these are people most likely out to interdict anyone for any reason, because? There are in reality no other avenues open to them to PvP? In truth they don't care what you're doing, what you're carrying to where and why... The easiest/main route they have to PvP is to go to where CMDRs are and randomly interdict and open fire! And this highlighting vapid gameplay because? If they're lucky (and of course interested) they my find an actual fight with a combat ship... But would that be better achieve by actual mechanic that offer it far more easily and far more constructively?

...

I fully 100% agree there is a lack of PvP content - or the resources/environment to allow emergent PvP to properly develop.

All I said was that trying to make yourself sound impressive with the hyperbolic "well it's not PvP because it doesn't fit my expectations" is nothing short of utter, total nonsense.

PvP=a player in competition with another player, in whatever form it may be, and is used to differentiate between encounters that are against AI enemies (PvE). It doesn't matter if that's a game of damn scrabble, it's PvP.

Concentrate on getting the message across and leave both your indignation and hyperboles at the doormat, because I believe said message is important but attempts to be dramatic with that kind of rhetoric inevitably leads to thread derailment.

 

[babelfisch]

PvP should be done in combat zones (which need some work to make them more interesting) and piracy should be done in anarchies. A high security system should be no place for PvP. I'd also like the option to pledge for a faction in war, removing crime & punishment in the whole system when attacking players or NPCs (of the opposing faction...). They could get reinforcements though.

 

[NeilF]

...

I fully 100% agree there is a lack of PvP content - or the resources/environment to allow emergent PvP to properly develop.

All I said was that trying to make yourself sound impressive with the hyperbolic "well it's not PvP because it doesn't fit my expectations" is nothing short of utter, total nonsense.

PvP=a player in competition with another player, in whatever form it may be, and is used to differentiate between encounters that are against AI enemies (PvE). It doesn't matter if that's a game of damn scrabble, it's PvP.

Concentrate on getting the message across and leave both your indignation and hyperboles at the doormat, because I believe said message is important but attempts to be dramatic with that kind of rhetoric inevitably leads to thread derailment.

I apoligise if I came across "strongly"...

I'm just frustrated (if that doesn't show) how after all this time:-
- PvP (& PvE) are still just not being moved forwards as regards depth/mechanics. And this is especially apparent with PvP as there's in truth next to no mechanics.
- How people are seemingly just so accepting and tolerant of the above, and seem to be happy that PvP in ED in truth is msotly a pointless shambles.

PvP in truth is little more than CMDRs just randomly interdicting and destroying other CMDRs for no real purpose/outcome, and this is somehow all we've now come to expect/tolerate? When did we seemingly lower our expections so much over the past few years?

 

[Robert Maynard]

If there is no real chance of the target winning the engagement then it's not really "versus Player" it's "against Target", so PAT rather than PvP.

 

[goemon]

"You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP" - i look through my friends list and ping some people, whether they'd enjoy a 1 vs 1 in eagles.

blockade running i mainly do at CG - i don't care why they interdict me, that's their problem, they are my content.

 

[NeilF]

PvP should be done in combat zones (which need some work to make them more interesting) and piracy should be done in anarchies. A high security system should be no place for PvP. I'd also like the option to pledge for a faction in war, removing crime & punishment in the whole system when attacking players or NPCs. They could get reinforcements though.

Well, not just combat zones IMHO, but a myriad of orchestrated "scenarios". ie: Consider two Powers are in effect in conflict. Why can't the CMDRs of one power sign up for tasks/missions, knowing CMDRs of the other power will be signing up to counter missions. The result is legal orchestrated PvP for reason. And these "scenarios" could be as diverse as you like (defending/attacking a damaged ship, escorting/attacking a convoy, enforcing/breaking a blockade, fighting even just over a location), and even be PvE compliant too (filled with NPCs) if that's more your bag.

Once there's easy to access PvP (if you want it) via a number of simple routes, then the next obvious thing is to address piracy (give it some love) and Crime and Punishment to reduce mindless pointless Pilots Federation destruction.

 

[StiTch]

I apoligise if I came across "strongly"...

I'm just frustrated (if that doesn't show) how after all this time:-
- PvP (& PvE) are still just not being moved forwards as regards depth/mechanics. And this is especially apparent with PvP as there's in truth next to no mechanics.
- How people are seemingly just so accepting and tolerant of the above, and seem to be happy that PvP in ED in truth is msotly a pointless shambles.

PvP in truth is little more than CMDRs just randomly interdicting and destroying other CMDRs for no real purpose/outcome, and this is somehow all we've now come to expect/tolerate? When did we seemingly lower our expections so much over the past few years?

Well firstly, every time I see someone state PvP is just ganking incidences I am immediately aware they're not a PvP focused player. Just because ganking is all you hear about here, doesn't mean it's all there is to it. No-one is gonna raise a dramatic "everything sucks" post because they got into an enjoyable encounter. Most of the actual PvPers are busy providing constructive feedback about weapons/mods, while everyone else is whining.

Secondly...FD have a difficult job. They're trying to write a sandbox game that isn't a sandbox game. Conceptually you can supposedly play the game however you choose, but in an environment that cannot be broken down in any way to allow "truly" dynamic gameplay.

The consequence is of course that players expect to be able to follow whatever their space legs tell them to do, but anything they want to do has to be given as pre-constructed content. FD therefore have to create balanced yet engaging content across the spectrum of all possible playstyles, because for whatever reason they are clearly in favour of undynamic gameplay that gets spoonfed to players. You'd think this would be a source of facepalm but given the overwhelming tirade of complaints that ED is too difficult to do so much as trade, I am at least glad they spoonfed players enough to keep the game alive.

So how do you make involving PvP content when one crowd wants it, and another crowd is launching abuse whenever they so much as hear the term PvP, let alone when orienting the game any more towards it?

I 100% wish FD would just shut down these forums and when they need feedback, pop an in-game message about a survey or something.

 

[NeilF]

"You open up Elite and decide you would like to PvP" - i look through my friends list and ping some people, whether they'd enjoy a 1 vs 1 in eagles.

I rest my case... The game offers you no real mechanics.

Consider what the outcome of this generally is. People don't look around friends list, and spend time and effort manually organising a fight, but instead go to a busy region and randomly interdict.

And in reality, do either of these two approaches in truth sound anything but shallow? Can you really not envisage ED orchestrating and offering PvP gameplay in anyway more interesting than this? Can you not imagine you and your friends signing up to a task/mission to defend a VIP NPC, while another wing of CMDRs are coming in to destroy them? Or... any other list of scenarios...

Or is random interdiction the pinnacle of PvP gameplay for you?

blockade running i mainly do at CG - i don't care why they interdict me, that's their problem, they are my content.

Well, maybe now consider everyone else but yourself? What about people just going about their business in game, being randomly interdicted and destroyed because in truth that's all that ED offers as regards PvP in the game?


So, I'll ask again, do you not think if CMDRs (eg: you and your friends) could sign up for in game missions/tasks, with a number of different scenarios/guises, that might not that ultimately mean PvP in ED might move on from what you've described above. Which personally I'd describe as nigh on vapid.

 

[goemon]

So, I'll ask again, do you not think if CMDRs (eg: you and your friends) could sign up for in game missions/tasks, with a number of different scenarios/guises, that might not that ultimately mean PvP in ED might move on from what you've described above. Which personally I'd describe as nigh on vapid.

i have zero problems with suggestion improving the PvP situation. but you opened a thread about whether PvP should be named differently, not about suggestions how to improve the situation.

i personally don't think, that different implementations of "non-consensual pvp-combat" will bring more people to enjoy or join just that: non-consensual pvp combat.

as nice as suggestions for wing-missions, ingame races, mechanics for better CZ or taking over station control etc. etc.

___

there are people who dislike "shooting fish in a barrel" in an ever respawning samey RES.
there are others who "simply want to fire up the game and fly to the RES located next to my home stations, and kill some npc."

i assume, there are people who exactly want to do what ED makes possible at the moment. interdicting random players with asynnetric combat power.

 

[digitalscream]

I rest my case... The game offers you no real mechanics.

I'm guessing you weren't around for the Hutton CG, then.

Admittedly, that was a unique situation, but FD should've realised by now how much fun that was, and tried to repeat it. They've kinda-sorta attempted that with all of the Maia CGs, but they're not even close to replicating what made the Hutton CG fun.

 

[Kyokushin]

I prefer rather PvU.
Player vs Universe. A part of the universe are other players and NPC's and they are equal.

 

[NeilF]

Well firstly, every time I see someone state PvP is just ganking incidences I am immediately aware they're not a PvP focused player. Just because ganking is all you hear about here, doesn't mean it's all there is to it. No-one is gonna raise a dramatic "everything sucks" post because they got into an enjoyable encounter. Most of the actual PvPers are busy providing constructive feedback about weapons/mods, while everyone else is whining.

Let's be fair... I didn't say PvP was solely ganking.

However, I think it's fair to suggest a huge amount of "PvP" is little more than CMDRs interested in PvP flying around busy areas interdicting and opening fire.

And furthermore I don't think I'm being unfair that in truth this is down to the fact the game offers little more than this as a way to (easily) participate in PvP. ie: Where are missions/tasks I can simply sign onto to pit my Wing against an enemy Wing of CMDRs.

Secondly...FD have a difficult job. They're trying to write a sandbox game that isn't a sandbox game. Conceptually you can supposedly play the game however you choose, but in an environment that cannot be broken down in any way to allow "truly" dynamic gameplay.

The consequence is of course that players expect to be able to follow whatever their space legs tell them to do, but anything they want to do has to be given as pre-constructed content. FD therefore have to create balanced yet engaging content across the spectrum of all possible playstyles, because for whatever reason they are clearly in favour of undynamic gameplay that gets spoonfed to players. You'd think this would be a source of facepalm but given the overwhelming tirade of complaints that ED is too difficult to do so much as trade, I am at least glad they spoonfed players enough to keep the game alive.

FD have got a difficult job... But personally when I see decisions to throw a huge lump of development time at projects like creating PvP mechanics/gameplay but in a different game, when that could instead have not only improved PvP in ED, but also improve PvE too, it's confusing/frustrating...

So how do you make involving PvP content when one crowd wants it, and another crowd is launching abuse whenever they so much as hear the term PvP, let alone when orienting the game any more towards it?

This I don't understand?

Let's say FD created a single new combat scenario. A VIP ship has broken down and is being repaired by (NPC) ships flying in to repair it. This immediately improves PvE and PvP. I could undertake a random mission to fly to a location and protect the VIP ship from enemy NPCs. I could undertake a random mission to go and destroy that VIP ship being protected by NPCs. I could ideally even do this in more involved guises with a wing of friends, or even NPC wingmen (giving simple attack this/defend that commands to)? AND, of course, in OPEN, we end up with a Wing of CMDRs signing up to attack the VIP, and a Wing of CMDRs to defend the VIP.

Now specifics aside, by introducing these sort of combat scenarios, the palette of ED is hopefully improved in many areas, from SOLO, to OPEN, for PvE to PvP.

You want to PvP? Then shock horror you don't just fly around randomly looking for it (possibly interdicting CMDRs not even interested in it), you simply undertake the dedicated mechanics offered to you! And shock horror these are possibly even actually interesting, and actually count for something.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Let's say FD created a compat scenario. A VIP ship has broken down and is being repaired by (NPC) ships flying in to repair it. This immediately improves PvE and PvP. I could undertake a random mission to fly to a location and protect the VIP ship from enemy NPCs. I could undertake a random missions to go and destroy that VIP ship being protected by NPCs. I could ideally even do this in more involved guises with a wing of friends, or even NPC wingmen (giving simple attack this/defend that commands to)? AND, of course, in OPEN, we end up with a Wing of CMDRs signing up to attack the VIP, and a Wing of CMDRs to defend the VIP.

Why would PvE players in Open not be able to expect to participate in a PvE engagement? To deny PvE players that possibility in Open is to encourage them to play out of Open - and, as Mark said, Frontier are well aware that the majority of players do not engage in PvP....

 

[shadragon]

PvP should be done in combat zones (which need some work to make them more interesting) and piracy should be done in anarchies.

Sorry, but I think that is the start of a slippery slope and would vote NO to it. All areas of the map should be available to any activity. If you pirate in a high security area you will get police showing up and some want that level of challenge. Organized pre-announced PvP can be placed in certain areas like CG's, but I should be able to interdict anyone I can see, at any time, for any reason within the rules.

I'd like to see major power battles over systems using both PvP and PvE elements. Whether that is PP or not is debatable. However, if power A decides to take over say Maia, then power B can oppose them.

Hard and fast areas where you can or cannot do something would tear the heart out of any game immersion.

 

[DukeIronHand]

As a PvE'er I have to admit I get tired of the PvP whine of "MOAR"...uh...stuff?
C&P? Who does that serve? Even assuming a workable system could be had. Will I feel better that a stealth station rammer gets a fine after he blows me up?
Piracy? Whatever....assuming the poor, stupid trader decides to play ball here in Open (because he is bored?) how does one know "true piracy" vs another gank before it is too late. Why do PvP'ers think (and demand apparently) that everyone playing ED has to be their content?
CL? Another meh with no good solution.

Truth be told the PvP'er will never be happy because they themselves so not truly know what they want or if they do how in the hell FD is going to make it work. 1/3 want "combat" (against who exactly?) and 2/3 want to gank and ruin whatever enjoyable experiences others are having in the game.
This has ALWAYS been the case in ANY online game. Where does this fantasy come from that ED players are different from any other online community.

And while I am on my soapbox the two disparate groups here will never conincide in the same play environment.
Let's say I want to do things beside PvP combat. My ship is designed as such to do things like mine, explore, trade, whatever.
Is this ship capable of participating in PvP combat? Of course not. So my role is to be someone else's content? Sounds dreamy...
So I want to PvP. I get me a super duper combat build (all Engineered up) to be competitive and now do what with it? Absolutely nothing because all it can do is combat so I have to cruise around trying to find another PvP'er for consentual combat? Assuming your "average" PvP'er wants a "fair fight" and that has hardly been my impression reading these boards. Or gank when that gets too boring.

To me there are no good answers but, people being people and FD being FD, the attempt to force players together in one homogeneous universe will make no one happy. "Blaze your own trail" should mean just that.