Powerplay PvP kills in PP2.0

Okay so,

In my opinion as an open only powerplayer since 2020, farming player-kills themselves should not be an objective in the future iteration of Powerplay. Here's why:

- It would be difficult for Fdev to create a countermeasure to people farming their own alts/friends pledged to an enemy. Depending on the actual implementation of PP2.0, I feel like a system could be made to make kills on enemy pledges count for more depending on how much work they've done for their power in a given system, in order to make the aforementioned tactic a zero-sum game. However, I'm not sure if Fdev could do it.
(Back in the old days, you'd let your friends steal your powerplay cargo to farm merits until it was nerfed to the ground. Now stealing powerplay cargo is largely meaningless)

- Balancing how much PvP kills are worth for your war effort would be difficult, as PvP combat is usually pretty rare outside of a rare few occasions where we've hit a critical mass of players in an objective system to maintain near constant fights.

- In this game it's nearly impossible to die to a player/players if you don't want to, for example in a Cutter.

- Increasing the frequency of player kills that have a concrete value will exacerbate issues in PvP balance, such as healing beams, fighter lag, combat logging, blocking, bug abuse and cheating.

Instead, I believe the best way to approach Powerplay PvP is the same way Powerplay 1 did it, i.e. make a framework of gamesystems (fortification, undermining) which are barebones by themselves and add the ever-present threat of PvP as a way to spice it up and make each encounter dynamic and unique.
Depending on the traffic at the objective system, haulers and underminers have to take into account the threat of being attacked by an enemy player, build their ships accordingly and take enemy players into account in their methods. Having a PvP force of your own to call for backup helps.
Haulers sacrificing some cargo capacity to fit stronger shields and underminers having to decide whether to risk holding their merits for a snipe or play it safe and claim as you go adds a fun layer of decisionmaking and compromise.
Less PvP-friendly players are always needed to tend to backline objectives when a big clash happens in a key objective system. There's always multiple things to do, and not everyone has to be able to partake in everything.


In conclusion, I think Powerplay should include meaningful PvP via being able to disrupt or halt enemy PvE actions, as I believe was the original vision for Powerplay. To achieve this, Powerplay 2.0 should be made Open only.
Player-kill counting should be saved for a future rework of CQC (pls gib real ships, free engineering, dedicated servers with private lobbies)
 
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This is why I posted this whole thing, not sure if "Destroy Enemy Commanders" means pvp kills on enemy pledges or if Fdev is now calling NPCs "Commanders" also.
 

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I had very similar thoughts about the exploitability of PvP kills counting towards objectives. There's a reason that under the current system, PvP kill count for 1 merit. I know some PvP enthusiasts who want kills to count for something, and I sympathize with their desire, but I'm currently unsure how Frontier can remove the exploitability factor and still keep it in.

Assuming that tupacci and my read on the situation is correct, of course. We could just be wrong.
 
I had very similar thoughts about the exploitability of PvP kills counting towards objectives. There's a reason that under the current system, PvP kill count for 1 merit. I know some PvP enthusiasts who want kills to count for something, and I sympathize with their desire, but I'm currently unsure how Frontier can remove the exploitability factor and still keep it in.

Assuming that tupacci and my read on the situation is correct, of course. We could just be wrong.
It would have to be some sort of diminishing returns, the first kill of CMDR A by CMDR B in a cycle yields a certain number of merits, with each subsequent kill rewarding fewer or even zero merits. Maybe it's done on a per-system basis, so that if B finds A in a new system they again get full credit for the kill towards progress in the second system. It would take a bit of coding, but we all know FDev loves their diminishing returns, so I'm sure they could handle it. :D
 
It would have to be some sort of diminishing returns, the first kill of CMDR A by CMDR B in a cycle yields a certain number of merits, with each subsequent kill rewarding fewer or even zero merits. Maybe it's done on a per-system basis, so that if B finds A in a new system they again get full credit for the kill towards progress in the second system. It would take a bit of coding, but we all know FDev loves their diminishing returns, so I'm sure they could handle it. :D
Still, the balance would be off as it's easier for players to farm 5-10 alt accounts on each of their mains, than to actually kill a powerplay opponent trying to get away. The system to prevent this would have to be something like;

Player A farms 5000 undermining merits in Winters control system #5. In doing so, player A has now built up a new type of "powerplay-bounty" worth 5000 "pvp-merits" in Winters control system #5.
Player B is trying to prevent Winters control system #5 from being undermined. He kills player A, and in doing so has gained 5000 pvp-merits ready to be turned in at Winters control system #5.
The problem is, with this proposal some PvE farmers are even less likely to venture into Open play for fear of giving their enemies a way to score a high value kill.

Maybe player-kills could be given a different value depending on the rank they have in their power. Again, in the long term not a viable choice as people can rank up their alts.

Or something like this to make it a zero-sum game to farm your own alts. Diminishing returns would make balancing valuable pvp kills difficult, as it's always easier and less time consuming to farm a number your own alts than kill the enemy who doesn't want to die.
 
Diminishing returns for killing the same player over and over would certainly help a lot.

In addition, the biggest effect of PK-ing on progress could be available in designated PvP conflict zones where winning the CZ or killing NPC-s matters much less than PK-s. Eg, one experienced combatant can face 3 novices and kill 2 of them before dying in the hand of the 3rd, and that one experienced player still has pushed the progress bars more than the one novice who finally killed him and won the CZ. Meanwhile the "ganker" ambushing and killing mission-running and trading players has made less impact with their successful 5 kills than one kill does in the CZ. The CZ-s could be, in addition to open space, around PP carrier groups.

I think this could incentivize PvP-rs who seek to make a difference in progress to partake in CZ-s where participants are on more equal footing instead of swatting the same mission runner in a non-combat ship over and over.
 
Still, the balance would be off as it's easier for players to farm 5-10 alt accounts on each of their mains, than to actually kill a powerplay opponent trying to get away. The system to prevent this would have to be something like;

Player A farms 5000 undermining merits in Winters control system #5. In doing so, player A has now built up a new type of "powerplay-bounty" worth 5000 "pvp-merits" in Winters control system #5.
Player B is trying to prevent Winters control system #5 from being undermined. He kills player A, and in doing so has gained 5000 pvp-merits ready to be turned in at Winters control system #5.
The problem is, with this proposal some PvE farmers are even less likely to venture into Open play for fear of giving their enemies a way to score a high value kill.

Maybe player-kills could be given a different value depending on the rank they have in their power. Again, in the long term not a viable choice as people can rank up their alts.

Or something like this to make it a zero-sum game to farm your own alts. Diminishing returns would make balancing valuable pvp kills difficult, as it's always easier and less time consuming to farm a number your own alts than kill the enemy who doesn't want to die.
FD have many variables to work with though- for example a ship / player has ship value, cargo value, work done for the Power that week (whatever the units will be) and soon a ranking within that power- that and a count of ships being shot down. You also have BGS like S curves that can be used to make lower value kills worth less, and have a sweet spot of ship value / mix of the above. So you could very well have alts all over, but the value of the ship, cargo, work done that cycle and ranking within the power (denoting effort put in) determines the INF gained. A Sidewinder with no work done that week, holding few merits and has a low rank won't compare to a high value target who has a decent rank, has made mots of merits that week and is flying a decent ship.

So to exploit this, you'd need to prime all your alts and work them up to a level that the S curve recognizes- it also means that players will change to hunt high value targets or that targets will try to use less expensive ships. Plus you also have murder S curves that have diminishing returns so exploitation has a limit. This also means that the 'hordes of killers' will have to rove about to have maximum effect.
 
FD have many variables to work with though- for example a ship / player has ship value, cargo value, work done for the Power that week (whatever the units will be) and soon a ranking within that power- that and a count of ships being shot down. You also have BGS like S curves that can be used to make lower value kills worth less, and have a sweet spot of ship value / mix of the above. So you could very well have alts all over, but the value of the ship, cargo, work done that cycle and ranking within the power (denoting effort put in) determines the INF gained.

So to exploit this, you'd need to prime all your alts and work them up to a level that the S curve recognizes- it also means that players will change to hunt high value targets or that targets will try to use less expensive ships. Plus you also have murder S curves that have diminishing returns so exploitation has a limit. This also means that the 'hordes of killers' will have to rove about to have maximum effect.
My point is, if the pvp-merits are really worth the time and effort getting them, some people won't scoff at doing all that and more to have another lever to pull. Not sure if 5C is fixed in PP2.0, but I'm sure they'd find somewhere to sink merits in to get a permanently farmable account. It also sounds like pvp-kill merits would have to be an abstracted black box of numbers again, otherwise alt-farmers would have a target to aim for.

However, if pvp-merits are actually more of a participation trophy that moves the slider a slight little bit, rather than an important pillar of future powerplay mechanics, I'm all for it. As of right now, the only thing to be gained from killing enemies is merit deletion and cringe comps, anyway
 
My point is, if the pvp-merits are really worth the time and effort getting them, some people won't scoff at doing all that and more to have another lever to pull. Not sure if 5C is fixed in PP2.0, but I'm sure they'd find somewhere to sink merits in to get a permanently farmable account. It also sounds like pvp-kill merits would have to be an abstracted black box of numbers again, otherwise alt-farmers would have a target to aim for.

However, if pvp-merits are actually more of a participation trophy that moves the slider a slight little bit, rather than an important pillar of future powerplay mechanics, I'm all for it. As of right now, the only thing to be gained from killing enemies is merit deletion and cringe comps, anyway
Its why in a suggestion I asked for both haulers and hunters to have a reward- haulers have a smaller INF boost per haul over time while attackers get a big INF boost to offset the time taken to hunt.
 
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