PVP post horizons (SCB & HRP Changes). What are your thoughts/builds?

Ozram

Ozram
Hey, I just wanted to see how others are adapting to the recent changes and what their (your) PVP builds are. Do you hunt alone or in a pack? How do you set up your ships? Can a decent PVP build still be viable for PVE?
My first impression is that the gap between the builds has grown wider recently, so something that might be a decent and versatile ship in PVE will now be a sitting duck in PVP. I also have the feeling that a lot of the recent PVP builds now are not the most cost effective for PVE CZ or HAZ REZ hunting. As an example, I have this build which serves me very well for most things PVE:
http://coriolis.io/outfit/python/06...042b02292f.Iw18eQ==.IwBj4yoo?bn=Nemesis MK IV
I'm pretty sure you can all appreciate how fast something like that would get demolished in most PVP encounters ;)
I was thinking of setting up something like this for PVP:
http://coriolis.io/outfit/federal_a...02030j2d2dB32t272f.Iw18cQ==.Aw18cQ==?bn=Krull
I haven't tried it yet so don't know how effective it would actually be, but I imagine when in a CZ or HAZ REZ this would get rather expensive to run and is something of a one trick pony (PVP only) setup.
What do you go with? How do you feel about it? What are the pros and cons of your build?
Cheers and I hope the new year is treating you well :)
 

vindicator jones

vindicator jones
PVP and PVE builds are now so far apart, they both belong in different games. Which is ridiculous in my opinion. I hate having to own basically 2 ships, one setup for PVP and one for PVE, and then have to decide which ship do I feel like flying today, because then I am locking myself into a particular play style.

The problem isnt so much HRP's or SCB's they never really were.. a good commander knows how to get around them.. The problems are weapons. Currently they are unbalanced in the sense you have 2 choices. Short term high damage engagements or long term, low damage engagements. RES farming obviously suits Long term, while PVP obviously suite short term... And those two areas overlap are becoming less and less.

I know that you cant really avoid the meta build, but you can minimize it and make more varied build viable. I would love to be able to take out my ship and know, that no matter what happens, PVE or PVP.. I can handle both and have fun doing both.

On your FAS PVP build, I would try 2 class 3 PA's and 2 class 2 multicanons. I had a bit of fun in that build. Or you could stick with 2 class 2 railguns and 2 class 3 canons for something a bit different. (odd builds I know)
 

aRtFuL

A
vindicator jones said:
On your FAS PVP build, I would try 2 class 3 PA's and 2 class 2 multicanons. I had a bit of fun in that build. Or you could stick with 2 class 2 railguns and 2 class 3 canons for something a bit different. (odd builds I know)
Click to expand...

Why not just go 3 PAs (bottom mounts, 1 class 3 and 2 class 2) and 1 Beam laser instead?

Better convergence, better hit coverage on the PAs, better shield ripping potential overall.
 

Ozram

Ozram
vindicator jones said:
PVP and PVE builds are now so far apart, they both belong in different games. Which is ridiculous in my opinion. I hate having to own basically 2 ships, one setup for PVP and one for PVE, and then have to decide which ship do I feel like flying today, because then I am locking myself into a particular play style.

The problem isnt so much HRP's or SCB's they never really were.. a good commander knows how to get around them.. The problems are weapons. Currently they are unbalanced in the sense you have 2 choices. Short term high damage engagements or long term, low damage engagements. RES farming obviously suits Long term, while PVP obviously suite short term... And those two areas overlap are becoming less and less.

I know that you cant really avoid the meta build, but you can minimize it and make more varied build viable. I would love to be able to take out my ship and know, that no matter what happens, PVE or PVP.. I can handle both and have fun doing both.

On your FAS PVP build, I would try 2 class 3 PA's and 2 class 2 multicanons. I had a bit of fun in that build. Or you could stick with 2 class 2 railguns and 2 class 3 canons for something a bit different. (odd builds I know)
Click to expand...
Yeah that growing gap does also bother me and I think you may be onto something with the burst vs endurance damage. Interesting ideas for the weapons setups. I can see advantages to both. Once shields are down I suppose the large cannons will be superior but the pa/mc combo is pretty damned effective (buddy of mine goes with a huge pa and four mc's on his FDL.
 

Majinvash

Banned
Majinvash
The new Meta is boring as hell.

A weapon rebalance might fix it.

Cannons shoot faster and really wreak a hull when they hit, not just hope for module damage.
Missiles become worth having ( then point defence becomes a thing again )
Torpedos travel a little faster
More C4 options

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 

Kazacy

Kazacy
In my opinion PVP and PVE setups are very different because of the game content creators. I don't know why people consider funny to farm a lot of weak npc's for hours, rather than fight one bad ass npc for 5 minutes and get the same amount of credits, or risk to be destroyed by the same npc in even less time.
It's all about alpha damage, in the end, versus a human commander you really need to throw at him everything you have in the shortest amount of time possible, or you will end up dead. Versus an npc most of time you can prepare and consume in peace popcorn, most of the time you are perfectly safe.
 

Ozram

Ozram
Kazacy said:
In my opinion PVP and PVE setups are very different because of the game content creators. I don't know why people consider funny to farm a lot of weak npc's for hours, rather than fight one bad ass npc for 5 minutes and get the same amount of credits, or risk to be destroyed by the same npc in even less time.
It's all about alpha damage, in the end, versus a human commander you really need to throw at him everything you have in the shortest amount of time possible, or you will end up dead. Versus an npc most of time you can prepare and consume in peace popcorn, most of the time you are perfectly safe.
Click to expand...
Someone else mentioned this in another thread and it makes sense. It's the burst vs prolonged dps that separates the builds most heavily. I'd say the value of stealth is also nullified vs NPCs.
 

nosleepdemon

nosleepdemon
Kazacy said:
In my opinion PVP and PVE setups are very different because of the game content creators. I don't know why people consider funny to farm a lot of weak npc's for hours, rather than fight one bad ass npc for 5 minutes and get the same amount of credits, or risk to be destroyed by the same npc in even less time.
It's all about alpha damage, in the end, versus a human commander you really need to throw at him everything you have in the shortest amount of time possible, or you will end up dead. Versus an npc most of time you can prepare and consume in peace popcorn, most of the time you are perfectly safe.
Click to expand...

In a one on one you not only need to throw the kitchen sink, but also stop the guy from crawling away once you've broken both his legs. In Elite it's a little too easy to run to be honest, I fought a Python commander earlier today in that DBS starting the fight with a single chaff, no power distributor, failing engines, heatsinks that could no longer launch and a cracked canopy - I should not have been able to run, but once I decided I didn't want to suicide, I just spun up and high waked while skirting around him. The DBS is a bit of an outlier but nevertheless, in most cases in Elite, it's rather too easy to escape and that really does cheapen things a bit.

Talking about escaping, I popped quite a few powerplants at range once the railguns converged on the arses of fleeing commanders. If you're going to run, high wake and stay close to your enemy until the drive is ready =)
 

raok

R
Ship design vs content.

Maybe they could just change the content so that pure farming, grinding, would not provide the top most rewards. Like res, cz, hauling.
 

JosiahD

JosiahD
vindicator jones said:
PVP and PVE builds are now so far apart, they both belong in different games. Which is ridiculous in my opinion. I hate having to own basically 2 ships, one setup for PVP and one for PVE, and then have to decide which ship do I feel like flying today, because then I am locking myself into a particular play style.

The problem isnt so much HRP's or SCB's they never really were.. a good commander knows how to get around them.. The problems are weapons. Currently they are unbalanced in the sense you have 2 choices. Short term high damage engagements or long term, low damage engagements. RES farming obviously suits Long term, while PVP obviously suite short term... And those two areas overlap are becoming less and less.

I know that you cant really avoid the meta build, but you can minimize it and make more varied build viable. I would love to be able to take out my ship and know, that no matter what happens, PVE or PVP.. I can handle both and have fun doing both.

On your FAS PVP build, I would try 2 class 3 PA's and 2 class 2 multicanons. I had a bit of fun in that build. Or you could stick with 2 class 2 railguns and 2 class 3 canons for something a bit different. (odd builds I know)
Click to expand...

Always felt this was going to happen personally, since the kickstarter days. Trying to balance weapons, ship equipment and such to cater for both PvE and PvP simultaneoulsy was never going to work well, in my opinion, nor end well. Frontier would have been far better off to simply balance everything for cooperative PvE (which would suit solo PvE too) and stick to their guns. The game is predominantly PvE, end of story. Solo is pure PvE. Both private group and open modes are still principally PvE (and always will be) given the relatively limited volume of space that sees regular PvP - even the PvPers still need to engage in PvE to 'progress'. Balance things for the principal gameplay - PvE - and sorry, but the PvPers (the minority) should just have to make do.

One wants PvP balance? The only way we'll get that, realistically, without adversely affecting the PvE - the principal gameplay - is in an arena-style mode like CQC where things can be more tightly controlled (eg more limitations on possible build combinations). In the main game, as we get an increasing number of ships and associated equipment, the more varied the possible combinations in terms of what one can encounter (outside of deliberately arranged encounters, such as a PvP tournament wherein everyone would turn up in specific PvP builds for the purpose), and the less likely that balancing can be effective. I would argue it has already gone past that point where effective balance is even possible - there's just too many possible build combinations for it to be truly balanced for both approaches. So we end up with what Vindicator Jones describes - needing to have multiple ships in a variety of deliberate builds optimised for either PvE or PvP (and having to make that deliberate gameplay choice when swapping ships) instead of what we should have had - PvE builds that are also effective for those 'rare' occasions when PvP occurs. The see-sawing of balance adjustments to satisfy PvP requirements has already started, in my opinion, and overshadowing PvE. A bad direction in my opinion - but it's just that - my opinion.
 
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