PvP vs Piracy...they are not the same.

Currently in another thread about people disconnecting, there is a debate about PvP and piracy. In the same thread the developers made suppositions that are not fully supported by human nature. They make sense...but they have logical fallacies in them. This post is meant to help with those fallacies.

As we all know, people in Elite can be broadly categorized. We have traders, miners, Bounty Hunters, Pirates, and so on. This post is mainly about pirates and their profession. Simply put, and not meant to be provocative, pirates are cowards. Why would I say that? Well it is simple, the developers suppose that a pirate is taking up piracy because they want to engage in PvP. That they desire to get in to fights. This is a logical fallacy.

Piracy as a profession is about one simple thing: Money. It is not at all about fighting, in fact a pirate, like a trader, wants to stay out of fights because those fights loose them money. If a ship explodes before it can drop loot means the pirate is out of money in the form of ammo, time spent, and potentially damage to their ship it's self.

Look at modern piracy, do you see pirates advertising their positions or attacking navy ships...heck no. The attack cargo ships or cruise liners. Their goal is to take the ship and ransom it. They take the ship, the companies pays the ransom, and the pirates hightail away before a navy destroyer can be on scene. The organizer of the pirates gets millions, the pirates get payed, and no one hopefully dies in the process.

The problem is that PvP is not being properly delineated. There are multiple types of PvP and they do not have the same interests. As discussed above, pirates are not at all interested in combat as it would take away from their profits. There are the people that want a fair fight, we see them posting. There are opportunists, they see a commander and well there is a fight to be had as long as it is close. Then there are those that just want the world to burn, see commander kill commander. Plus there may be more that I am not thinking about.

This should be taken into consideration when defining who wants what. But for pirates I would say they could use some more tools. Methods to temporarily disable a targets FSD (some kind of weapon or hack) while also making it easier for the pirate to ransom their victim (Would you want cargo...or a credit transfer?). Now I do not profess to be the devs or to have access to what they know. But I can get into the mindset of the profession.

So that is that, I hope there is a good discussion and may all professions be viable.
 
The maxim in EvE was "if you're in a fair fight you are going it wrong" To me true PvP'ers are the guys who want to compete with equally equipped and skilled players. E.g, tournament style or in conflict zones where everyone has brought their best combat ship and is prepared to fight and die. The rest (and unfortunately the majority) are just looking for easy kills to feed their ego. I'm happy to go head to head if my opponent wants to dance but I just wouldn't blow some guy up in a trader just to give my ego a boost. Thats just a bit pathetic
 
have some Rep.

i was thinking about pirating some ppl but in the end it does not pay well enough and i have no way of temporarily disable my pray. if i shoot the fsd they go boom if i shoot the thrusters they are stuck and if they refuse to hand over some cargo i need to shoot something.

if i could jam their fsd or thrusters for a time period i choose (as long as i stay with them) it would make much more sense to pirate.
i would also apriciate a way of credit transfer.
 

Pheyes

Banned
I think most cmdr traders would prefer to be killed by pirates, that way they can complain about how they were griefed, maybe if they just complied to the pirate they would lose a few cargo but live on.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I think most cmdr traders would prefer to be killed by pirates, that way they can complain about how they were griefed, maybe if they just complied to the pirate they would lose a few cargo but live on.

What are the odds that the pirate will allow the trader to flee? ;)
 
PvP = Player vs Player
PvE = Player vs Environment


PvP allows players to perform action usually only against NPCs, but against players, be these fair or not.

On ED/EVE a player can attack another player for:
- loot
- no reason
- rp reasons
- *more_here*

Killing for loot = Piracy
Killing for no reason = Murder
Killing for RP reasons = RP


Is that hard to understand?


Edit: I knew today gamers had no idea the terms used in gaming, but... Do we really need this same discussion every week?
 
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I think most cmdr traders would prefer to be killed by pirates, that way they can complain about how they were griefed, maybe if they just complied to the pirate they would lose a few cargo but live on.

I agree, maybe they would but look at it from the trader's point of view. This guy has spent the last X hours of playing building up to ever more expensive cargos... after all, this is why he is a trader. Then along comes this guy and demands the trader hands it over. In the trader's eyes, just like in real life, he sees the pirate as low life scum who is too lazy to get a job and work. Ok, he may be armed to the teeth, like in real life and is threatening you. Unlike real life, however, there is no actual REAL danger, this is just a game. If the trader knows he has no chance of winning a fight or escaping, the only way he can 'stick it' to the pirate is by denying him his reward, which he then does.

Now I'm not saying this is right or fair, after all, if the trader puts himself in the position where he can neither fight or flee because he has sacrificed everything for more cargo then you could say he deserves all he gets. All I am saying is that, unless he is roleplaying, he has a psychological incentive NOT to hand over his cargo.

Edited to add: This incentive is strengthened if the trader knows that if he hands over cargo then no crime is committed (thereby actively encouraging the pirate). It is further strengthened by the knowledge that if the pirate kills him then he will get a hefty bounty... a kind of revenge.
 
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The maxim in EvE was "if you're in a fair fight you are going it wrong" To me true PvP'ers are the guys who want to compete with equally equipped and skilled players. E.g, tournament style or in conflict zones where everyone has brought their best combat ship and is prepared to fight and die. The rest (and unfortunately the majority) are just looking for easy kills to feed their ego. I'm happy to go head to head if my opponent wants to dance but I just wouldn't blow some guy up in a trader just to give my ego a boost. Thats just a bit pathetic

That is why I call people that attack anything are people that want the world to burn. This is the same mentality as those PvP people in MMO's that take their mains into the opposition noob area and kill lvl 10s for hours or till they are chased out.

Any way while I am opposed to piracy, I do believe that it should be viable as part of the game. But the tools are not there.
 
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Pheyes

Banned
Hey if I am walking down a dark alley and a guy pulls a gun on me and demands my wallet I will hand it over, I certainly am not going to argue or try to run away and get shot in the back.
 
As mentioned, there is a segment of the community that simply wants to pop player ships. The ego thing... If you give pirates the ability to simply subdue another ship, just consider what the PK's would do with that. I get the sentiment, I really do. My go at piracy was simply a failure, but you have to consider what kind of opportunity for griefing a gadget like that would offer.
-
I had had an epiphany recently. I believe the Dev's shouldn't consider how easy or hard a Role may be, nor how profitable it is. Decisions should be based solely on how the galaxy should work. No pandering to any faction. It is a 'Cutthroat Galaxy', and it should cut everyone. Tweak, update, adjust whatever, bur keep it in the spirit it was developed in. Especially they should stay away from designing/balancing for PvP.
 
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What are the odds that the pirate will allow the trader to flee? ;)

i would let the trader go , if i play pirate i´m a pirate nor a murder .. if he demands that it was not scary enough i blast his shields away.. but i will not kill a trader if i have what i want.

And to this point at the moment i can force you to self-destruct your ship but that’s not what i want as a pirate because you will think " this bloody pirate made self-destruct i play solo now" i would like you to think. "this bloody pirate made me lose some profit i play solo now"

if i fly around and just pop everything i see i will get a big bounty but thats not how i whant to play nor what i understand under piracy if it comes to a fight i will fight if i have to die i will die but until then i would like to rob your virtual credits not to end your virtual life.
 
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Piracy I could understand in ED if you could ransom the pilot. Most pirates are in small ships (vipers etc) and they have no cargo space anyway. The ability to ransom (transfer cash to the pirate or die) would make pirating legitimate and profitable. And dont tell me transferring cash is a big change. The 'luxuries wanted' guys can magic cash into your account and commodities out of your hold
 
Piracy I could understand in ED if you could ransom the pilot. Most pirates are in small ships (vipers etc) and they have no cargo space anyway. The ability to ransom (transfer cash to the pirate or die) would make pirating legitimate and profitable. And dont tell me transferring cash is a big change. The 'luxuries wanted' guys can magic cash into your account and commodities out of your hold

Cash transfer is left out probably to prevent currency trading, farming, and account hacking.
 
The maxim in EvE was "if you're in a fair fight you are going it wrong" To me true PvP'ers are the guys who want to compete with equally equipped and skilled players. E.g, tournament style or in conflict zones where everyone has brought their best combat ship and is prepared to fight and die. The rest (and unfortunately the majority) are just looking for easy kills to feed their ego. I'm happy to go head to head if my opponent wants to dance but I just wouldn't blow some guy up in a trader just to give my ego a boost. Thats just a bit pathetic

In my opinion, from ambush with overwhelming firepower is the only way to attack, a fair fight is one that should be avoided at all costs. Go ahead and analyse me, tell me how i have a massive inferiority complex, that i am immature and/or how I am less of a valid human being that you, because that's what all of these threads are, and its getting to the point where its hilariously short sighted and prejudiced.
 
PvP = Player vs Player
PvE = Player vs Environment


PvP allows players to perform action usually only against NPCs, but against players, be these fair or not.

On ED/EVE a player can attack another player for:
- loot
- no reason
- rp reasons
- *more_here*

Killing for loot = Piracy
Killing for no reason = Murder
Killing for RP reasons = RP


Is that hard to understand?


Edit: I knew today gamers had no idea the terms used in gaming, but... Do we really need this same discussion every week?

I dont think anyone was asking for a literal translation... but thanks anyway.
 
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As mentioned, there is a segment of the community that simply wants to pop player ships. The ego thing... If you give pirates the ability to simply subdue another ship, just consider what the PK's would do with that. I get the sentiment, I really do. My go at piracy was simply a failure, but you have to consider what kind of opportunity for griefing a gadget like that would offer.
-
I had had an epiphany recently. I believe the Dev's shouldn't consider how easy or hard a Role may be, nor how profitable it is. Decisions should be based solely on how the galaxy should work. No pandering to any faction. It is a 'Cutthroat Galaxy', and it should cut everyone. Tweak, update, adjust whatever, bur keep it in the spirit it was developed in. Especially they should stay away from designing/balancing for PvP.

I agree with this. i too would have liked for the pirates to have better tools, but giving them those tools would make the day of any Player killer out there.
First there would need to be a really big consequence for blowing a player ship up unprovoked.
 
jep but still because there is no cash trading i have to meet a friend outside the station and drop 96 tons of gold to give him his share from the last tour... great... he was so happy so scoop it all up for one hour straight.. there are other ways to stop currency trading, farming, and account hacking. i never had my accounts hacked in the last 15 years.

but that a side have 2 cargo slots in my viper so i would demand a 2 tons of cargo.. and to be honest even if its paladium its not worth it i would do it for the fun. i need to sell it for 50% at the black market and if he is trading paladium in a Type 6 he is making more profit then loss if he hands over some cargo.

but most trades will try to flee so they get shot at and in the smaller ships like a hauler ven if i try to just shoot your thrusters i will pop your ship. So atm Piracy is useless

and i could live with a 100k bounty for pk´ing as lond as i get a tool to get what i want with out killing anyone
 
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