question for people with fragment cannon experience

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hi
i am just starting a frag build for something different, i am using a python 2.

i have not yet unlocked the pacifier frag cannon in PP yet (typically LYR hands this out right at the end near level 100 so will be a little while yet) however i am curious.

what do people think will be the better weapons in practice for, lets say average combat pilots

the pacifier frag cannons or the current CG reward, Gimballed Fragment Cannons, pre-engineered with Double shot and High capacity modifications.?

(obviously i will only get 2 of those in size 3 and sadly no size 2).....

i am gonna have to use them in the mean time anyway whilst i get the PP rank and was thinking of combining them with a couple of standard engineered double shot size 2 frags and then a couple of beams perhaps (otherwise i wont have anything to strip shields)

any advice gratefully received
thanks

 

[Punchdrunk1973]

To use Frags effectively you need to be very close to your target, sub 600m really.
Pacifiers massively improve this limitation by having both a faster shot speed and a tighter spread, making it FAR easier to use them at a greater range, although still only up to 1000m max I'd say.

My Pmk2 has 4 pacifiers and 2 SRB beams with venting to strip shields. This works very well, but requires short range all the time. If I used normal frags instead, that range would have to be significantly less.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

I generally use Frags on my size 3 slots, The Pacifiers are OK but weren't worth the month of hauling for Hudson I did many years ago. Got a few extra fleeing pirates that would have outrun my basic frags but nothing spectacular.
The Frag is all about maximum damage in as short a time as possible, as such the gimbal would tend to reduce this so I have my reservations about their usefulness on something as manoeuvreable as a P2. If I wanted to use them on something a bit more sluggish perhaps...

 

[St0rmFury]

If you are a semi decent pilot with skills to stay within 500-750m of your target, go with pacifiers. Just don't use both frags & pacifiers together because they have different shot speed.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I have 2 Python mk2s, one with 4 pacifiers and one with 4 gimballed frags in the large slots.

Personally it's a compromise. Do you want a tighter spread giving you greater range, up to around 1km or do you want an easier when aiming and better weapon convergence, but limited to around 500m.

I fly them slightly differently, but as to which is more effective, I couldn't say.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Hi
i am just starting a frag build for something different, i am using a python 2.

i have not yet unlocked the pacifier frag cannon in PP yet (typically LYR hands this out right at the end near level 100 so will be a little while yet) however i am curious.

what do people think will be the better weapons in practice for, lets say average combat pilots

the pacifier frag cannons or the current CG reward, Gimballed Fragment Cannons, pre-engineered with Double shot and High capacity modifications.?

(obviously i will only get 2 of those in size 3 and sadly no size 2).....

i am gonna have to use them in the mean time anyway whilst i get the PP rank and was thinking of combining them with a couple of standard engineered double shot size 2 frags and then a couple of beams perhaps (otherwise i wont have anything to strip shields)

any advice gratefully received
thanks

A full frag Py2 (just add some incendiary if you want to have additional thermal damage) is brawling ship, very effective at killing.

To benefit even more from the double shot... the bigger the target, the better, as with small/nimble ships the second shot fired can miss.

It is fine for PvP, but opponents will try to stay out of the optimal range... not that many ships can do that constantly, anyway.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

On paper, the Pacifier has essentially the same "if everything hits" damage as a gimballed frag (both of which are less than a standard fixed frag)

So it's whether you find the aim assist more or less likely to get a greater fraction of shots on target than the Pacifier's tighter spread and higher projectile speed, and that really depends on how you fight and what you're fighting against.

On top of that consideration for normal Frag Cannons, the CG HighCap+Double Shot combination will be giving you more damage per second and more damage per ammunition reserve than just overcharging the Pacifiers would if it's a standard G5+G5 setup - though maybe you'll be paying for this a bit by not getting to add an experimental on top of that.

 

[Ashnak]

Pacifiers - as you can still add a single mod and they're not confused by chaff.
Double Shot is usually the least desireable of the three
Rapid Fire goes through your ammo just about as fast, but also reduced the atrocious reload time
Overcharged gives you (roughly) the same burst DPS, keeps the reload time but maximises the amount of damage you can do with the available ammo

They're my most favourite weapons for, let's say, retaliatory defence and hunting single targets. The downside is their ammo consumption and that they're really democratic in dealing out damage, so any scenario where you're likely to encounter friendlies is not really the place to whip out your Pacifiers (or frags). So yes for armed cargo ships where dealing with interceptors on a cargo run makes up the majority of your income. Ok-ish for short jousts of bounty hunting in HAZ RES. No for CZs or Installation scenarios (like the current CGs).

 

[angusmadmac1]

I have an unfinished frag build on python .
I used overcharge screening on pacifiers a high cap corrosive and a overcharged drag on the the two mediums does well against NPC .
The idea is to poke your nose in the enemies engines and pull the trigger repeatedly and giggle like a little girl as they become space dust quickly.
Shields don't last long with the build
If you go incendiary the shields go down a wee bit faster but the hull takes longer to
Double shot just makes the magazine empty even faster ( which is ok on a few targets )
But it's is a lovely ship to fly . Oh and I'm about as average in combat as I'm an explorer at heart
Have fun with it

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I just hate frags. I've tried them again last week and quickly got rid of them. The clip size and the following extremely long reload pause is just infuriating. There's no autoloader experimental for them either, which could make it bearable. And while they do a decent job to get rid of shields, they completely suck against hull bullet sponges. Near zero module damage, so I really have to chew through the hull. In the time it takes me to kill one ship in a CZ with frags I've powerplant sniped two with the tried and tested beam/multicannon combo.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I just hate frags. I've tried them again last week and quickly got rid of them. The clip size and the following extremely long reload pause is just infuriating. There's no autoloader experimental for them either, which could make it bearable. And while they do a decent job to get rid of shields, they completely suck against hull bullet sponges. Near zero module damage, so I really have to chew through the hull. In the time it takes me to kill one ship in a CZ with frags I've powerplant sniped two with the tried and tested beam/multicannon combo.

That's the main drawback with frags, they're very situational, which is why I prefer to use PAs or multicannons in CZs. A hit is a hit with those weapons. With frags, if you've got a Krait or Cobra flying straight towards you, you're firing just to apply an experimental because you're not going to be doing any damage. Worse are the Alliance ships because if you're trying to wear down hull on those you're going to have a bad time as they'll just take it and ask for more. Don't even try Vipers if you want to be done with a CZ quickly.

I'm not saying frags are bad as I've used them very effectively in CZs. They're not the fastest way of clearing one though, at least not unless I'm pairing them with SRB PAs.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hi
thanks everyone for the feedback. lots of food for thought. so by the sounds of a pure build will be for big game hunting if i want to do some high level kill pirate lord type missions then, but keeping away from longer engagements which may include small ships.

ultimately i will probably to 2 builds, 1 pure frag for the above scenario (i may use the PP ones for that when unlocked) and maybe 1 hybrid laser frag which i can use the ones from this CG for, with frags for the bigger ships but also have some lasers to take out the smaller stuff save wasting ammo on the big fish, which may be better for a more varied combat sortie

I have the python mk2 but have been struggling to find an excuse to buy a mamba, or perhaps a corsair............but this could be the excuse i need (i dont like having more than 1 of each ship when there are so many different ones in the game)

 

[Pville_Piper]

With the PA2 I ended up adding a PA to snipe modules when it gets into a joust. Gives me something to do when you get a a couple of km apart and are waiting for the capacitor to refill and the rediculous slide to stop...

 

[Three Stars]

High Capacity is extremely slept on with frags and pacifiers.

You get the same high clip size as Double Shot. You can even use them like Double Shot with the added benefit that you control when each shot comes out plus how many shots come out instead of having to adjust to the fixed interval that regular DS shoots. You even get a boost to firing rate.

Two clicks of HC is more damage than one click of Overcharged.

Pacifiers make great carriers of debuffs when fired together on one trigger with other single shot projectiles like PAs, APAs and cannons. Pacifier shots move faster than most cannons and PAs, so it hits first and applies debuffs a fraction of a second before your real damage hits. Corrosive’s 25% damage boost helps a lot with a high damage projectile like a PA, even if the AP boost is useless. Drag munitions fired with a PA means that your target is now slow and easier to hit with the next volley.

Incendiary pacifiers are great anti-shield weapons. It’s always easier to hit a shield bubble than a flat ship profile.

A fun basis of a build to try is three pacifiers, each with a different experimental. One drag, one incendiary, one corrosive, all high cap, always fired together. The thermal one helps against shields. The drag one means you get more chances to shoot. The corrosive one helps against hulls.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I've gone with 4 on my P2, Drag, Incendiary, Dazzle and Corrosive. Drag is extremely irritating. It slows ships down so drastically that I either overshoot or ram them, since I'm already very close for the full damage.

 

[Aashenfox]

I am a well known pvp frag specialist, for what that's worth. I run most of my ships as 'shotgun snipers', frag and rail, though recently I've been swapping railguns on some ships for modded GPCs, it's still a shotgun sniper.

The method being to joust close to land frags, then hold boost and drift out, fire a few railgun volleys, cancel any cells, shoot any modules if the shield is down, then line up for another pass. This is incredibly effective in pvp, and useful in pve when outnumbered (remember you only need to outrange NPC weapons by 1.5km to reduce their damage to almost zero), so good jousting is a very important technique to 'git gud' at, as it provides exceptional offense and defense simultaneously.

If I address everything everyone else has said, that would add a lot of words, so I'll just give you my opinion in isolation.

First, choose the right ship and hardpoints. Whether a ship is well suited to gimballed frags, or pacifiers, is a fairly simple formula. If the ship has sufficient hardpoints that are on the upper deck of the fuselage (top mounted weapons), then it's ALWAYS gimballed frags. If the hardpoints are underneath or on the side (and therefore unsuitable for gimbals), then pacifiers are the better choice. Combat ships that support a gimballed frag build are the following, with their rating for using gimballed frags:

Mamba - 10/10 - every hardpoint is top mounted, Mambas are frag beasts.
Python mk2 - 9.5/10 - Every hardpoint except one is top mounted, and that lower nose hardpoint actually has enough separation from the ship, and the nose has enough of an upswept angle to make it a rare suitable slot for a gimballed frag. It will fire along with the upper frags as long as the enemy is in the bottom two thirds of the screen.
Python mk1 - 9/10 - All hardpoints except one are top mounted. It's a little frustrating to have a large underneath, but 2 large and 2 medium gimballed frags is devastating anyway, whatever else you decide to put in the belly hardpoint.
Krait Mk2 - 9/10 - 3 large hardpoints on top and the best railgun position in the game, attached to your pilot's ears.
Chieftain/Challenger, 9 and 8.5/10 respectively. The large and small hardpoints are on top and the lower(s) is/are good for rails. My challenger is a famous organic FDL killer with 4 frags and 3 rails.

Honorable mentions: Mandalay (4 out of 6 on top), and Krait Phantom.

Anywhere you have a large hardpoint that is NOT on top of the ship (exception - the belly hardpoint in both pythons), then Pacifiers are the better choice. Why are gimballed frags better in up facing hardpoints? Simple, while Pacifiers do have more speed, making landing a shot technically easier, and a tighter spread, allowing more damage from a longer distance, this is ENTIRELY offset by the fact that it is near impossible in the heat of a turning battle to land all 3 volleys clean and centered on the enemy. Gimballed frags on the other hand do more overall damage, and almost always put all three shots center mass as long as your ship position is correct. Some might shout 'skill issue!' which is fair, but why make your life more difficult and be less effective, just because someone says the other thing takes more skill to use? Sorry, I'm about effectiveness, if you want a demonstration of my skill, hang on, I'll be back in a few with my FDL. Lastly, having to line up pacifiers carefully and STAY lined up for the duration of the volley makes you really easy to hit. You can boost and spiral around your target and still land all three shots from gimballed frags.

So, trust me, if you want to dominate a Pacifier using Py2, simply mount 4 large gimballed frags, ignoring the no gimbals in belly rule, because that hardpoint is special, like me . Put your preferred mid/long range weapon in the two medium slots (or more frags if you're insane ). Don't bother with Pacifiers on any of the ships in that short list above. Hope this helps. Feel free to review my youtube channel for multiple demonstrations (The Ashen Fox)

I could talk about frag/rail theory all day if you want to know more, fire away. <3

PS. gimballed frags fired at the right range and the right angle, also dgaf about chaff. 60% of the damage still lands.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

thanks that is really interesting

 

[angusmadmac1]

I am a well known pvp frag specialist, for what that's worth. I run most of my ships as 'shotgun snipers', frag and rail, though recently I've been swapping railguns on some ships for modded GPCs, it's still a shotgun sniper.

The method being to joust close to land frags, then hold boost and drift out, fire a few railgun volleys, cancel any cells, shoot any modules if the shield is down, then line up for another pass. This is incredibly effective in pvp, and useful in pve when outnumbered (remember you only need to outrange NPC weapons by 1.5km to reduce their damage to almost zero), so good jousting is a very important technique to 'git gud' at, as it provides exceptional offense and defense simultaneously.

If I address everything everyone else has said, that would add a lot of words, so I'll just give you my opinion in isolation.

First, choose the right ship and hardpoints. Whether a ship is well suited to gimballed frags, or pacifiers, is a fairly simple formula. If the ship has sufficient hardpoints that are on the upper deck of the fuselage (top mounted weapons), then it's ALWAYS gimballed frags. If the hardpoints are underneath or on the side (and therefore unsuitable for gimbals), then pacifiers are the better choice. Combat ships that support a gimballed frag build are the following, with their rating for using gimballed frags:

Mamba - 10/10 - every hardpoint is top mounted, Mambas are frag beasts.
Python mk2 - 9.5/10 - Every hardpoint except one is top mounted, and that lower nose hardpoint actually has enough separation from the ship, and the nose has enough of an upswept angle to make it a rare suitable slot for a gimballed frag. It will fire along with the upper frags as long as the enemy is in the bottom two thirds of the screen.
Python mk1 - 9/10 - All hardpoints except one are top mounted. It's a little frustrating to have a large underneath, but 2 large and 2 medium gimballed frags is devastating anyway, whatever else you decide to put in the belly hardpoint.
Krait Mk2 - 9/10 - 3 large hardpoints on top and the best railgun position in the game, attached to your pilot's ears.
Chieftain/Challenger, 9 and 8.5/10 respectively. The large and small hardpoints are on top and the lower(s) is/are good for rails. My challenger is a famous organic FDL killer with 4 frags and 3 rails.

Honorable mentions: Mandalay (4 out of 6 on top), and Krait Phantom.

Anywhere you have a large hardpoint that is NOT on top of the ship (exception - the belly hardpoint in both pythons), then Pacifiers are the better choice. Why are gimballed frags better in up facing hardpoints? Simple, while Pacifiers do have more speed, making landing a shot technically easier, and a tighter spread, allowing more damage from a longer distance, this is ENTIRELY offset by the fact that it is near impossible in the heat of a turning battle to land all 3 volleys clean and centered on the enemy. Gimballed frags on the other hand do more overall damage, and almost always put all three shots center mass as long as your ship position is correct. Some might shout 'skill issue!' which is fair, but why make your life more difficult and be less effective, just because someone says the other thing takes more skill to use? Sorry, I'm about effectiveness, if you want a demonstration of my skill, hang on, I'll be back in a few with my FDL. Lastly, having to line up pacifiers carefully and STAY lined up for the duration of the volley makes you really easy to hit. You can boost and spiral around your target and still land all three shots from gimballed frags.

So, trust me, if you want to dominate a Pacifier using Py2, simply mount 4 large gimballed frags, ignoring the no gimbals in belly rule, because that hardpoint is special, like me . Put your preferred mid/long range weapon in the two medium slots (or more frags if you're insane ). Don't bother with Pacifiers on any of the ships in that short list above. Hope this helps. Feel free to review my youtube channel for multiple demonstrations (The Ashen Fox)

I could talk about frag/rail theory all day if you want to know more, fire away. <3

PS. gimballed frags fired at the right range and the right angle, also dgaf about chaff. 60% of the damage still lands.

So what would your engineering be on these frags ? Just interested in seeing what others use

 

[Aashenfox]

So what would your engineering be on these frags ? Just interested in seeing what others use

Overcharged primary always, no exceptions. Double Shot is about the same DPS but is annoying and uses ammo faster (hence these new double engineered ones). Specials depend on what I'm doing. Drag is overpowered against the best ships in the game, so I personally don't use it in pvp, I don't want to spoil the other player's fun (it is not fun as a good player fighting against someone with drag, it's simply op).

On the Python 2 I run the left and right with incendiary, and the up and down both with corrosive. Of course I'm aware corrosive doesn't stack, but an even balance of thermal/kinetic damage is ideal for pvp (and pve) and all the other specials come with distractions (dazzle is worthless on a shield build, you can't really make use of screening shell unless you have insane time on target and frags are NOT a time on target weapon). If I'm running a hull build, dazzle is a no-brainer with judicious use of silent running.

Short answer, half of them incendiary and the other half whatever you deem useful in the circumstances (but always with at least one corrosive). Don't subject other players to drag unless you really hate them If you have an odd number of hardpoints, err toward incendiary.

 

[Elyssaen]

Mamba - 10/10 - every hardpoint is top mounted, Mambas are frag beasts.

All of this makes me wonder this: how would you build a frag boat Mamba using the CG double-engineered gimballed frags? The Huge hardpoint would be left over after the CG frags, and there's no Huge frag... would you stick a Large frag in there anyway or go with something else?