Questions about Supercruise

[Matt L. Icious]

Hello Cmdrs,

I've played E : D quite some time and I do get around without hassle in supercruise.
But I have to admit that I do not understand the finer details of the supercruise mechanics. I checked the Wiki, but it is missing details.
Maybe the community can provide some answers to help me - and other Cmdrs - with this.
So, here are my questions with some guesses, based on my own observations.

A) Gravity well
The influence of the gravity well on supercruise is most obvious: It limits speed and acceleration. I regard that reasonable scifi physics. But:
1. Does the gravity well influence the ship's rate of rotation? Would that depend on the orientation of the rotation regarding the center of the gravity well? If so, in what way? I assume: No.
2. Do ships' gravity wells/FSD wakes influence one another? E.g. is getting to close to a Cutters wake in a Sidewinder a bad idea? There is mass lock in normal space, but I assume: No, not in supercruise.

B) Supercruise Maneuverability
For this section, please always assume an identical, constant gravity well to get that influence out of the way. Further, I'll exclude the thrusters rating as an influence on supercruise, since it doesn't seem to make any sense. But that might be a wrong assumption right from the start! On we go:
3. Does supercruise speed/acceleration vary with ship type/mass/FSD size & rating? If so, in approximately what way? I assume: No. (But that makes me ask: Why not, it would seem quite natural to have a better rated FSD to not only increase the jump range, but also supercruise capabilities)
4. Does supercruise rate of rotation depend on the speed (vertical orange bar) being in the blue zone - or the acceleration/thrust setting (horizontal line overlapping it)? I assume thrust, but I am very unsure here.
5. Does supercruise rate of rotation vary with ship type? How, where's the stats? I assume: yes, see FGS oddity/bug, but have no clue regarding the data. Is it the same as the normal space rate of rotation?
6. Does supercruise rate of rotation depend on ship mass/FSD size & rating? I think no, but that feels wrong to me, see 3.

C) Interdictions
I have little experience with interdictions, so these questions might have very obvious answers.
7. Do the ship types/masses/FSD ratings influence the interdiction? Sidey interdicting a laden T9: next to impossible to succeed - Cutter interdicting a Sidey: hard to get away? I have no clue.
8. Has the FSD Interdictor size/rating any other influence than the permitted range of the interception? A rated Interdictor vs. E rated FSD makes it easier, the other way 'round harder? Again, no clue.
9. Has the range at which the interdiction is started an influence on the outcome? I.e. if you initiate the interdiction at 1/3 of your Interdictors range, it gets easier to succeed? Once, again, no clue.

Well then, all answers appreciated - as are additional questions that I didn't think about. [smile]

 

[Bigglesof206]

Some of this is probably answerable, but most of it probably isn't because you are really asking questions about stuff that doesn't really exist, so it's a bit like asking how often you need to reshoe a unicorn.
I'll take first bite at a few, just to get the argu...eerr discussion started.

IN MY OPINION.....A) 1) I doubt it. The resistance to rotation about an axis is an example of inertia, and that's down to the mass of the object (and it's mass distribution). Check out formulae for rotating different objects, they have formulae like I=mr squared....no mention of g in there.

A2) I don't know if this ties in with how FD have decided that FSDs work, especially given that mass lock mysteriously affects supercruise but not hyperdrive. However, the gravitational field about any ship would be tiny, gravity being an incredibly puny force, so I've alwayts assumed that the issue with mass locking is down to the FSD setting up fields around the ship, and two ships too close together cause interference that makes the jump less efficient/harder to initialise. That's one of the unicorm shoeing examples.

3) Thrusters don't work in SC, so you'd be okay to ignore them. Speed/acceleration - I've never tried timing anything, but my feeling here is that the FSD rating affects only jump range. I've never noticed any speed or acceleration difference between my ships, other than in normal space using thrusters.

4) I am unaware of anything affecting the ships ability to rotate in SC. Maybe I'm just not paying attention, but why would it?

5) Why not take two different ships out and time them? More agile ships rotate better, during the interdiction game at least. I think this comes down to the agility rating of the ship, rather than its FSD.

6) as 5

7) Yes, you have it back to front though - at least as explained by FD themselves, the smaller ships are more agile and have better chance against the larger ships. To be honest most of my interdicting (rather a lot of it) has been almost exclusively in the FAS, and I've never had any real problems interdicting anything I went for. (At least no problems since Radeon brought new drivers out).

8) Again according to FD - and a lot of players' statements - the interdictor range is supposed to be all that is affected. Of course each class of interdictor A,B, C etc has an effect inasmuch as they each require different power input, and they cost different amounts to fit. I have personally found the 2A FSDI on my FAS doesn't seem to work well if I only have 2 PIPs to sys, 4 PIPs and I win just about every time. I understand this is not how FD says it works, but I have quite literally hundreds (over a thousand, almost certainly) of interdictions with this setup under my belt and I can state categorically that this is how MY interdictor IS working. (I have no idea why).

9) Some people believe so, I don't remember seeing any dev comments on this, but there are a number of interdiction threads about the place where this occasionally comes up. I generally wait until the target is well inside my range, and I have a very high success rate - but I don't know that things would have gone differently had I triggered the FSDI sooner. It seems to me that this is something you could easily check for your own setup fairly quickly if it's important to you.

Disclaimer - Very little of the above can be answered logically based on physics, for example, as it concerns imaginary objects like FSDs. Some you can answer based on what Devs have said (although you must bear in mind that what was intended to happen isn't always what does happen.) Luckily for you it probably wouldn't take much to test each idea out experimentally, if it's important for you to know the answers.

Dave

 

[Matt L. Icious]

TY for your answers/observations, Dave.

you are really asking questions about stuff that doesn't really exist

In a way, yes. But I am asking because I do not know if it really doesn't exist or if I simply didn't notice (yet). No trolling, smart ing etc.

1) I doubt it. The resistance to rotation about an axis is an example of inertia, and that's down to the mass of the object (and it's mass distribution). Check out formulae for rotating different objects, they have formulae like I=mr squared....no mention of g in there.

Uh, I passed the newtonian stuff there and was thinking about compressing/expanding a non-isotropic field etc. Since SC always means a non-zero velocity and thus never pure rotation. But anyway, matches my observation: no influence.

A2)...two ships too close together cause interference that makes the jump less efficient/harder to initialise. That's one of the unicorm shoeing examples.

Or harder to sustain as well? Put in different terms, the question is: Can ships 'collide' in supercruise? Never happened to me, but I had some close encounters that did make me wonder.

3) ... my feeling here is that the FSD rating affects only jump range. I've never noticed any speed or acceleration difference between my ships

Thought so. Still odd.

4) I am unaware of anything affecting the ships ability to rotate in SC. Maybe I'm just not paying attention, but why would it?

Well, there is a 'blue zone' indicator in supercruise. My assumption is "if it's there, it means something". I also seem to recall to have read something along those lines elsewhere, but I can't quote or point to that.

5) Why not take two different ships out and time them?

Because I am lazy. With all the great stats tables for weapon damage, shields, normal space rotation around I was hoping someone else already did that. Also, the next shipyard is some kly away from where I am now. Exploring, thus spending most time in SC and wondering about the details.

8) Again according to FD - and a lot of players' statements - the interdictor range is supposed to be all that is affected. [...] I have personally found the 2A FSDI on my FAS doesn't seem to work well if I only have 2 PIPs to sys, 4 PIPs and I win just about every time.

OK, I'll take FDev's word then: Distance/range only.
But you kind-of bring up another question: Does the power distribution do anything in SC besides refueling the capacitors? I can't recall the blue-zone marker shifting with PIPs, only with velocity.

Disclaimer - Very little of the above can be answered logically based on physics

Yeah, that makes it kind of hard. The manuals could really be a bit more comprehensive. It took me half a year to get the connection between SYS PIPs and shield strength.
Guess that calls for some SCIENCE to extract the hard facts. Maybe if I'm back in the bubble.
Or some words of wisdom from the devs.

 

[Lheim]

Ship turn rates in supercruise, since it's actually turning the altered frame of reference created by the drive, probably shouldn't have anything to do with the ship's turn rates in real space.

Ship turn rates in real space are related to the strength of lateral thrusters and their position on the hull.

In supercruise? Some obscure function of the drive rotates the "warp bubble".

 

[Bigglesof206]

Umm,
just checking, apologies if it sounds like I'm being facetious, but the blue line on the throttle is intended to show the range of ship throttle settings at which your manouverability I at it best, in 'normal' space. I presume it's still displated in SC/Hyperdrive simply because there's no particular reason to not display it - but I don't think it's actually relevant to anything in SC/Hyper.

As Lheim suggests, turn rates in SC probably shouldn't be affected by turn rates in normal space, having said that they shouldn't my experience suggests that they are - if I overshoot a station in my Anaconda it takes forever to turn back round, whilst my DBS whips round in no time.

Dave

 

[Matt L. Icious]

Ok, I did some tests I can do out in the boondocks: Timing the rotation.

Equipment: AspX, 5A FSD
Location: ~400 kls from the next object heading straight away from it
v(100% Throttle)~1100c v(Throttle blue Zone)~875c
Measured: 360° rotation vs. a star straight on(pitch, yaw), Andromeda (roll). 3 repetitions.

100% throttle:
pitch: 19s
yaw: 75s
roll: 5s

75% throttle
pitch: 14s
yaw: 55s
roll: 5s

Pitch, yawn are 25% faster in the blue zone, roll is unaffected. The latter makes sense as I assume that happens without influencing the space compression fore and aft.
As for my 'throttle or speed bar in blue zone' question: Hardly matters, as the bars catch up quite quickly with one another. I did not manage a single turn with speed and throttle different throughout the maneuver.

Cross-referencing here the numbers have the same general trend (roll<<pitch<yaw), but are pretty different.

 

[777Driver]

A, large gravity wells influence a ship's handling in SC, most noticeable with gas giants or supergiants, very noticeable if you fly near the hypergiant VY Canis Majoris. The ship develops drift in pitch and roll, controls feel spongy.

B,ships obtain A rated thruster maneuverability in SC, regardless of what class thrusters they have installed, speed in the blue zone provides optimum maneuvering rate

C, ship mass influences interdictions, smaller the ship the better it is to interdict and evade (recent addition to the game)

 

[Bacalao]

Hello Cmdrs,

I've played E : D quite some time and I do get around without hassle in supercruise.
But I have to admit that I do not understand the finer details of the supercruise mechanics. I checked the Wiki, but it is missing details.
Maybe the community can provide some answers to help me - and other Cmdrs - with this.
So, here are my questions with some guesses, based on my own observations.

A) Gravity well
The influence of the gravity well on supercruise is most obvious: It limits speed and acceleration. I regard that reasonable scifi physics. But:
1. Does the gravity well influence the ship's rate of rotation? Would that depend on the orientation of the rotation regarding the center of the gravity well? If so, in what way? I assume: No.
2. Do ships' gravity wells/FSD wakes influence one another? E.g. is getting to close to a Cutters wake in a Sidewinder a bad idea? There is mass lock in normal space, but I assume: No, not in supercruise.

B) Supercruise Maneuverability
For this section, please always assume an identical, constant gravity well to get that influence out of the way. Further, I'll exclude the thrusters rating as an influence on supercruise, since it doesn't seem to make any sense. But that might be a wrong assumption right from the start! On we go:
3. Does supercruise speed/acceleration vary with ship type/mass/FSD size & rating? If so, in approximately what way? I assume: No. (But that makes me ask: Why not, it would seem quite natural to have a better rated FSD to not only increase the jump range, but also supercruise capabilities)
4. Does supercruise rate of rotation depend on the speed (vertical orange bar) being in the blue zone - or the acceleration/thrust setting (horizontal line overlapping it)? I assume thrust, but I am very unsure here.
5. Does supercruise rate of rotation vary with ship type? How, where's the stats? I assume: yes, see FGS oddity/bug, but have no clue regarding the data. Is it the same as the normal space rate of rotation?
6. Does supercruise rate of rotation depend on ship mass/FSD size & rating? I think no, but that feels wrong to me, see 3.

C) Interdictions
I have little experience with interdictions, so these questions might have very obvious answers.
7. Do the ship types/masses/FSD ratings influence the interdiction? Sidey interdicting a laden T9: next to impossible to succeed - Cutter interdicting a Sidey: hard to get away? I have no clue.
8. Has the FSD Interdictor size/rating any other influence than the permitted range of the interception? A rated Interdictor vs. E rated FSD makes it easier, the other way 'round harder? Again, no clue.
9. Has the range at which the interdiction is started an influence on the outcome? I.e. if you initiate the interdiction at 1/3 of your Interdictors range, it gets easier to succeed? Once, again, no clue.

Well then, all answers appreciated - as are additional questions that I didn't think about. [smile]

A1. Yes, but only if you're going too fast, you lose a lot of maneuverability when you come in too fast past a massive body.
A2. No, wakes are massless (though if you target any destination your ship will act as though the object has mass. e.g. if you target a signal source in deep space and go too fast you'll lose all kinds of maneuverability/throttle control as you zoom past, the moment you untarget the signal source you gain control of you ship as normal again<---terrible mechanic, should be entirely dependent on the bodies mass)
B3. Nope, they are all the same. FSD class/rating only has to do with maximum jump range.
B4. Dependent on speed only. (you can test this by zooming past your target too fast, you'll not have very good maneuverability until your speed comes down into the blue no matter what you do with the throttle/thrust)
B5. Yes and no, they all behave differently and some ships behave much better in supercruise than normal space (AspX/DBE) while others are worse (anaconda).
B6. Nope, just the ships base supercruise handling, so a fully laden T9 will handle the same in SC as an empty T9.
C7. No. Indirectly they do because of the different handling (easier to chase the vector/stay on target in a more nimble ship).
C8. No. (from dev comment, no idea where I read it though it must have been in the last couple months)
C9. No. (from dev comment, no idea where I read it though it must have been in the last couple months)

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C, ship mass influences interdictions, smaller the ship the better it is to interdict and evade (recent addition to the game)

I am curious where you read/experienced this, as far as I know it has nothing to do with that.

 

[Bigglesof206]

On threads devoted to the thorny topic of interdiction, several months ago, devs stated that the smaller ships have an easier time interdicting larger ships, and also avoided interdiction from larger ships more easily - as there are about a gazillion* interdiction threads, each a bazillion** pages long, feel free to check on that 'cos I'm too old to go search it out....but it was stated. It seemd a bit odd to me, the dev seemed to suggest it made sense, whilst I'd have thought lassooing another ship conferred an advantage on the one with higher mass. (I'd much rather try to lasso a pig rather than a rhino).

Thinking back on it, I'm not sure if the line was that it was the relative size of the ships, or their relative masses that mattered - I think it was masses. (Size and mass tend to go together in ED, but not always).

Dave
* and ** - these are tried and true mathematical terms for 'big numbers I can't be bothered to actually count, but big all the same'