PvP Questions for PvP veterans

[Deleted member 192138]

There are quite significant restrictions on rails. They're very power hungry and distro hungry. Even with heat reduction if you chain up shots they still get spicy pretty quickly, especially if you're using them as your main weapon. Very limited ammo means you better be good at hitting with them or you're wasting a lot of DPS, the workaround for this is plasma slug which means you aren't benefiting from the other experimentals and doesn't work on every ship because fuel tanks are limiting. There's not many viable builds that can lean on rails for alpha damage and to use them consistently you either have to be very good with them or sit in reverse watching your opponent low wake on you. So all that OP damage is mostly used as a utility function or, very rarely, wing support.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

For pve and pvp c1-c3 lasers are not competetive with them as primary weapons becouse of fuel rails in pve and effects in pvp (and pve too), and with engineering of pp and distributors there is no limit for their use, you don't have to specially outfit ship for them, as this would be case with absence of thermal reductions. Problem with balancing rails is they are most effective at range, and fallof was limiting factors preengineering, so they not become too good, with no fallof you must be really horrible with them to make less than 1/3 damage of fixed laser of the same size, and those are also skill based weapon, and also much easier to use at range. It's not obvious how broken they are becouse we lack gimballed and turreted variants of them. Even in pve rail npc's are horribly unbalanced, increase difficulty 2x times. Current focused blueprint instead of long range would be much better, making lasers with lr mod an option again. Now there is no choice really.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

"It's not obvious how broken they are because we lack gimballed and turreted variants of them" almost like skill level to get hits is some sort of built in balancing factor.
"Even in pve rail npc's are horribly unbalanced, increase difficulty 2x times." you mean NPCs can actually get some damage on you? How OP!

If you're fitting a ship to get alpha damage from rails you definitely have to build around that to manage heat, distro and ammo in some way. Lasers are an effective primary weapon as a specific counter build but are weak against hull tanks. Rails are strong for module sniping hull tanks but that requires skill, and weaker as alpha damage against shield tanks due to their limited ammo. It seems fairly balanced in that sense. An argument could be made that superpenetrator is a contributor to why hulltanks are less viable but that's a separate discussion about shield vs hull balancing issues and imo there are more creative fixes than nerfing superpen (such as MRP engineering).

If you're really so convinced that rails are so OP then I'd love to see how you use them in a competitive environment - do you have videos?

 

[A C Ender]

I love reading this discussion, it's the best way to learn different viewpoints and ideas. I've not given up on my PvP sidey idea, but need to work on some more weapons and engineering before I'll head over to Shinrata to play with the big boys.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Rails are strong for module sniping hull tanks but that requires skill, and weaker as alpha damage against shield tanks due to their limited ammo. It seems fairly balanced in that sense. An argument could be made that superpenetrator is a contributor to why hulltanks are less viable but that's a separate discussion about shield vs hull balancing issues and imo there are more creative fixes than nerfing superpen (such as MRP engineering).

module damage and some effects like extra corrosive damge need balancing in meta of reinforced SG's and HD boosters stacking, but i think its consensus in pvp crowd they are too strong and in practice reduce build variety, especially in wing fights, where 3 ships are viable currently.

If you're really so convinced that rails are so OP then I'd love to see how you use them in a competitive environment - do you have videos?

I don't record, but ironically i could give videos of being scrub with fixed lasers as a proof that rails are OP
Game currently have nice balance in fixed, gimbal and turreted variants of each weapons, some may argue that fixed multis like cannons could use better projectile speed, but generally it's fine as it is, i think that gimballed pa's would be fine and balanced, but not rails, even if we apply same jitter mechanic like with other weapons, lack of fallof with lr mod have too good synergy with easier aiming at ranges thx to micro gimbal.

 

[Bigmaec]

Everyone who fought against a railverski KB+M Phantom or FdL or whatever knows rails are absolutely OP under certain circumstances.

Sadly I don't have the video but I got severly beaten by one of those. No fun. And not even close.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Everyone who fought against a railverski KB+M Phantom or FdL or whatever knows rails are absolutely OP under certain circumstances.

It's so bad that under normal circumstances those guys don't even get much action.

 

[Falter]

It's so bad that under normal circumstances those guys don't even get much action.

I mean, to be fair - that's because the average PVP'er can't usually compete with anything that might in any way remotely challenge the convention of what is considered "META." That, and most PvP'ers are way too sensitive when it comes to loss due to ego.

I could point fingers and use clear and concise examples of the META pilots who exemplify this to a T, but I shan't.

 

[Bigmaec]

I mean, to be fair - that's because the average PVP'er can't usually compete with anything that might in any way remotely challenge the convention of what is considered "META." That, and most PvP'ers are way too sensitive when it comes to loss due to ego.

I could point fingers and use clear and concise examples of the META pilots who exemplify this to a T, but I shan't.

What? PvPers and ego? Preposterous

 

[Falter]

What? PvPers and ego? Preposterous

clearly that'd never happen, right?

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Everyone who fought against a railverski KB+M Phantom or FdL or whatever knows rails are absolutely OP under certain circumstances.

Sadly I don't have the video but I got severly beaten by one of those. No fun. And not even close.

The trick for the second time you fight against such a build is knowing the best way to fight someone so boring that all they want to do is float away from you in reverse - is to wake out on them and do something else. Never fails.

module damage and some effects like extra corrosive damge need balancing in meta of reinforced SG's and HD boosters stacking, but i think its consensus in pvp crowd they are too strong and in practice reduce build variety, especially in wing fights, where 3 ships are viable currently.

I'm not sure that rails being OP is consensus considering increasingly the meta-build at the moment is tending towards 4PA and a hammer - so no module damage and no corrosive. The biggest offenders that make hull tanks un-viable is emissive and scramble spectrum.

I don't record, but ironically i could give videos of being scrub with fixed lasers as a proof that rails are OP
Game currently have nice balance in fixed, gimbal and turreted variants of each weapons, some may argue that fixed multis like cannons could use better projectile speed, but generally it's fine as it is, i think that gimballed pa's would be fine and balanced, but not rails, even if we apply same jitter mechanic like with other weapons, lack of fallof with lr mod have too good synergy with easier aiming at ranges thx to micro gimbal.

But you do still have to be able to hit fixed with the strongest weapons in the game - rails and PA. Some sort of balancing of them I guess. Even though you wouldn't want to use the gimballed anyway because then you'd have to put up with the inaccuracy of gimbal jitter.

 

[Falter]

I'm not sure that rails being OP is consensus considering increasingly the meta-build at the moment is tending towards 4PA and a hammer - so no module damage and no corrosive. The biggest offenders that make hull tanks un-viable is emissive and scramble spectrum.

I'ma stop you right there. The META FDL's only damage is the plasma ram. Outside of that, it's easy to outshoot in close range.
As for the reverski comment...well. Just reverse on the reverski pilot or stop. Watch them fly out of range and then let them, themselves run away.
But, as for FDL's suffering against Reverse...that makes literally no sense. Unless the other FDL pilot fighting the reverse FDL can't fly - they'll be the same speed with similar weapons and hitpoints. The pilot who loses to the reverse pilot in the instance is the lesser with not enough experience to truly PvP.

But, if it's something like a fast ship revers'ing on a slow one, then the reverse ship is literally just mock worthy since they're running from a "slow and less agile" threat.

 

[Bigmaec]

The trick for the second time you fight against such a build is knowing the best way to fight someone so boring that all they want to do is float away from you in reverse - is to wake out on them and do something else. Never fails.

True. Actually the fight I was in was prearranged (in Colonia of all things) where I met the CMDR using that build was white-knighting. And read about that build and was curious, we chatted, and fought. It was one of the most miserables experiences ever
Next time I encounter such a build I wake away, cause it sux.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

But, if it's something like a fast ship revers'ing on a slow one, then the reverse ship is literally just mock worthy since they're running from a "slow and less agile" threat.

If ship with best defences in game,better than avarage hardpoints, also have best boost multiplier then build variety is limited, everything without lr weapons that is not phantom or FDL can't compete with reverskies, and this kills buid variety, given all those counters vs hulltanks @bernard17 mentioned. Fighting reverski 6km rail de lance with 7km reverski plasma phantom is getting old preety fast, even if it's hillarious for the first time.

 

[Falter]

If ship with best defences in game,better than avarage hardpoints, also have best boost multiplier then build variety is limited, everything without lr weapons that is not phantom or FDL can't compete with reverskies, and this kills buid variety, given all those counters vs hulltanks @bernard17 mentioned. Fighting reverski 6km rail de lance with 7km reverski plasma phantom is getting old preety fast, even if it's hillarious for the first time.

Phantoms : 550 speed
FDLs: 580 speed

Sounds like an Aim5Head and personal problem with said FDL pilots. From what I've seen watching most FDL's fight anything reverski, I think they conveniently forget that you can't just boost without using your other thrusters or primaries in PvP while in Faoff.
Control of their vectors said FDL's must learn. Well, that and if their ships are so easily hard countered then the FDL isn't META.

discussions like this just serve to show how bad the FDL is

Well, then again, the same pilots claim that railguns work like force shell cannons too...so . . . go figure.
Plus, look at it another way:

A "META" FDL with 4k shield and 2k hull (6k total hitpoints, or 10k with 4 pips to systems,) can't beat a biweave Phantom which has less total hitpoints than it, is less agile due to her lack of lateral control and acceleration value, and has a lower hardness rating?
Sounds like the argument of why the Gunship is actually superior to the FDL since FDL's need broken hitpoints to even compete with it without getting instantly nuked.

FDL . . . META? Please. It's a ship that's a crutch, not in any way:
"The Most Effective Tactic Available." And, like stated:

Lances who cry about reverski just need to learn to actually fly their ships.

 

[Starmony]

Phantoms : 550 speed
FDLs: 580 speed

Just a minor clarification - did you maybe reverse those numbers accidentally? My Phantom's top possible speed is 591, with the biweave hybrid hull tank build running around 572 under normal conditions. In contrast, my heavy reactive armor prismo FDL build runs about 538-540 while my three booster biweave lightweight armor version tops out around 565. Two booster biweaves squeeze out a few more m/s, but I don't think 580 is even possible unless you make some serious concessions with lightweight mods on core internals, weapons, etc.

 

[Falter]

Just a minor clarification - did you maybe reverse those numbers accidentally? My Phantom's top possible speed is 591, with the biweave hybrid hull tank build running around 572 under normal conditions. In contrast, my heavy reactive armor prismo FDL build runs about 538-540 while my three booster biweave lightweight armor version tops out around 565. Two booster biweaves squeeze out a few more m/s, but I don't think 580 is even possible unless you make some serious concessions with lightweight mods on core internals, weapons, etc.

I was quoting the last speeds given to me by a Lego classed pilot.
Point stands though.
FDL's complaining about reverse is like a Cobra IV who picks a fight with a Corvette complaining about low waking for 5 minutes.
Quite useless and a demonstration of that pilot's lack of ability.

(The dripping sarcasm in the mid was clearly glossed over it appears.)
580 speed and railguns that 'cause force shell' should have been enough to point out to the Chronic Wake syndrome response, don't ya' think?


(Which, let's theorize the speeds you proposed for like...half a second)
572 FDL vs. 591 Phantom
So...the FDL is going forward while perma-boosting in FAoff maintaining her speed, whereas the Phantom with her bad turning radius and horrible acceleration and maneuver thrusters is at most achieving 480 to maybe 500.
Any complaints about reverse are literally double standards from the FDL pilots who rely on said tactics already, and need wingmates to even win fights without the need for reverse.
Perhaps the other option would be for those pilots to learn the game and drop crutches like pip macros, etc. etc. Or, just the macros they run on certain guns in general.

Regardless, it's quite hilarious that as of now the "META" is complaining about reverse class pilots. . .
If only they hadn't done that to even stand a chance of competing then maybe they'd have developed actual piloting skills, not be fanboy'ing over the FDL, and of course, have moved on while actually developing a degree of competency?
Just a thought for the "META" which isn't META at all, in general.
(I just find the argument to be similar to "META" complaining about non-existent SLF lag or calling others who aren't toxic, toxic when they are either just looking for an excuse or way to save face, or looking for an easy scape goat to hide from their behavior.)

Right?