Rail Guns & the Secret nerf bat

[Kenneth McGrew]

Hey...

so this is a bit of a question i guess for those who often use rails, i was having a right hoot with them about 5-6 months ago, flying about in small ships causing havoc, i engineered some long range and synthesised ammo for 30% more damage and they were FUN and useful

then i ventured off into the black for a while and came back to the bubble for some more rail shenanigans.... but same ship, same scenarios and its down right useless, out of curiosity i fitted one med multi cannon (standard non engineered) and one modified rail gun with 30% ammo damage addition

and vs small ships in real life scenario (time on target and all that nonsense) the rail vs multicannon were even paced vs shields

when the shields were down the multicannon ripped apart the enemy like a tin opener while the rail gun was just meh...

vs large ships the rails had a slight edge it felt, although that's more than likely because they're easier to hit so more rail shots per minute.

long story short i ended up fitting gimbaled multi-cannons because they're far Superior, surly fixed weapons would have a decent viable advantage, gimball city sucks, and have they secretly changed rails damage window because they certainly feel pants now, and its not though lack of engineering and shots on target!

i've gotten rail gud so to speak and can use them they're just rubbish compared to gimballed aimbot weapons

 

[Aashenfox]

I have several videos on my channel of random pve fights, using railguns on various ships in all of them. I take at least one railgun on every ship that I fly into combat, they are my go-to weapon.

I concur with your findings, they are extremely effective against shields, however against hulls, they will frequently do ZERO damage. I think I know why this is though...I think it's because when you hit a module (any module), the damage is NOT taken off the hull, only the module. My latest video hasn't uploaded yet, sometime later today, but it shows this very well. I was sniping hte PP of a corvette, and the shots that hit hte PP did almost no damage to the hull. Whether this is intentional or not it's hard to say. Could it be that you are now targeting and trying to hit modules with them, where before you weren't? If you are good enough to consistently hit modules, you would certainly get the impression that they do very little hull damage.

FWIW, I consider myself an experienced railgun user and I use them as follows:

Every ship has at least one, as I've already said. If the ship is small and/or has heat issues but not mass issues, the right mod is a no-brainer, Sturdy Mount. This reduces heat and power draw dramatically, but adds a lot of weight. In my VM4, two small sturdy mount railguns can be fired almost indefinitely with 2 pips to weaps. If the ship is small and has weight issues, it has to be lightweight. My Courier has a single lightweight medium rail in the centre mount. For medium and large ships go with long range, either G1 if you have no heat issues (just to lose the dropoff and roll many times to get the bonus you want, though for G1 bonus will be small), or G5 if you need to roll for a heat bonus (not because you want the extra range, just because you want the higher heat bonus that G5 CAN give over G1, this is going to be a seriously expensive weapon to roll, but is arguably the most OP in the game if you can get a G5 long range with heat reduction equivalent to Sturdy Mount (it can be done)).

When a ship only has one, then it is a utility weapon, not a damage weapon, and ALWAYS has feedback cascade. Two or three feedback cascade shots (if you get lucky, just one hit will do it) on a ship using a shield cell negates the cell completely, and is absolutely critical for controlling large ships with shield batts in pve (and I imagine pvp too). If the ship has 2 railguns, the second is super penetrator, as the module snipe effect is extremely op. because the round passes through the entire superstructure of the ship, you do not need to attack the right side of the target, you can hit the pp from ANY angle if you're a good enough shot.

Bearing these specific uses in mind, the fact that hull damage is hit and miss is a matter of little concern, as that is not their primary use anyway. If I was going for damage, I would put super pen on both (but the lack of feedback can make fights last a lot longer than they need to)...

Here's one of my vids showing how I use them (note how none of his shield cells did anything)...feel free to check out my other vids as well, I use this rail combo in all of them, it's so potent. I'll be uploading another video today/tomorrow of basically the same fight as below, only with focused PAs instead of efficient, anyway, the reason I mention it is because in the NEW video, I PP snipe a Deadly corvette in 5 shots. I was very pleased with myself and none of my other vids show module sniping quite as good. I'll try to remember to update here when I upload it.

[video=youtube;38AyafgOo3w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38AyafgOo3w[/video]

 

[Runis]

Railguns suck since a long time ago.

No balance pass since a long time ago (heat cannons still bugged?).

It won't change because FDev is busy catering to the masses and quit developing the skillful game that E.D. once was (proof of this are the upcoming C&P changes).

 

[Aashenfox]

Railguns suck since a long time ago.

No balance pass since a long time ago (heat cannons still bugged?).

It won't change because FDev is busy catering to the masses and quit developing the skillful game that E.D. once was (proof of this are the upcoming C&P changes).

I don't agree with your post at all. Watch Peleuch (never spell that right, hopefully you know who I mean) fight in his FAS if you don't want to take my word for it as a dirty PvEer, he uses TWO railguns (as is sensible, 4 is crazy) very effectively in PvP. Railguns are perfect right now, imo, I don't know if they ever got nerfed, but if so it probably wasn't a bad thing, any buff would make them ridiculously op. If you want to be able to fire them more often and have less power issues, try Sturdy Mount. I am a nuts minmaxing engineer myself (I was also a significant contributor to tank theorycrafting at Elitist Jerks for WoW if that means anything to you, I'm not saying that to intimidate you, just to let you know that I'm not usually one that just spouts off without understanding underlying mechanics and math) and I use rails (no more than 2, not even on the FGS) on ALL my ships, I don't pvp (yet, but I will in the future), but that honestly isn't relevant in a mechanics discussion. Lastly, feedback rails are essential pvp meta as a utility to cancel shield cells, and as such, again they are ridiculously OP, the single highest dps weapon in the game against a ship using a shield cell by nearly a factor of two in terms of reducing effective health of the enemy.

 

[ryan_m]

Railguns do 70% thermic and 30% kinetic damage, so it would make sense that they are very strong against shields and weak against hull. When you land rail shots and they do no hull damage, it's because it did module damage instead.

They are VERY powerful weapons if you know how to use them properly.

 

[Non Grata]

Railguns do 70% thermic and 30% kinetic damage, so it would make sense that they are very strong against shields and weak against hull.

In my experience they're rubbish against shields and great against hulls (as long as you don't hit a module instead).

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Railguns do 70% thermic and 30% kinetic damage, so it would make sense that they are very strong against shields and weak against hull. When you land rail shots and they do no hull damage, it's because it did module damage instead.

They are VERY powerful weapons if you know how to use them properly.

Aside from external modules, it makes no sense that hitting an internal module doesn't damages the hull

 

[ryan_m]

Aside from external modules, it makes no sense that hitting an internal module doesn't damages the hull

It's a balancing mechanism. It'd be too powerful if it did both at the same time.

 

[UnhappyDev]

Railguns are perfect right now, imo, .

If not perfect, they are in quite a good place. Plenty of skill needed to hit consistently with rails (try on an XB1 controller!) and mods like feedback cascade/penetrator make them quite deadly in the right hands.

 

[Aashenfox]

Aside from external modules, it makes no sense that hitting an internal module doesn't damages the hull

I agree, but yeh, what Ryan said. Happy to handwave for weapons balance, it's very important.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

Railguns do 70% thermic and 30% kinetic damage, so it would make sense that they are very strong against shields and weak against hull. When you land rail shots and they do no hull damage, it's because it did module damage instead.

They are VERY powerful weapons if you know how to use them properly.

yes but equally multicannons are crap vs shields (or should be) but i can strip shields at the same pace as a rail gun on small ships, Larger ships the rails are only better because i have more opportunities to fire on a large slow target, but overall aimbot multicannons are quicker at killing ships

Railguns should be devastating in the right hands not just "very powerful" because thats just offset vs time on target, vs good opponents who dont just sit there those that sit there deserve railing

what im trying to get at is yes a rail gun has 50 DPS vs a multicannons 12 but the multicannon is non stop firing with the gimbals constantly following the target not to mention drain on capacitor and heat created by rails vs multicannons which can just fire constantly with one pip in weapons

the same can be said for fixed weapons in general vs gimbal / turrets =/

i am playing on xbox too ... which makes aiming fun, but ive got over that learning curve and hit 90% of the time - as a comparison class one PA's (plasma repeaters) on a SLF are far more devastating than any engineered rail gun... especially if you can aim, im lethal with a SLF but i enjoy rails and ships more so.

ps if we could have large rails or even huge rails

 

[ryan_m]

yes but equally multicannons are crap vs shields (or should be) but i can strip shields at the same pace as a rail gun on small ships, Larger ships the rails are only better because i have more opportunities to fire on a large slow target, but overall aimbot multicannons are quicker at killing ships

Railguns should be devastating in the right hands not just "very powerful" because thats just offset vs time on target, vs good opponents who dont just sit there those that sit there deserve railing

what im trying to get at is yes a rail gun has 50 DPS vs a multicannons 12 but the multicannon is non stop firing with the gimbals constantly following the target not to mention drain on capacitor and heat created by rails vs multicannons which can just fire constantly with one pip in weapons

the same can be said for fixed weapons in general vs gimbal / turrets =/

i am playing on xbox too ... which makes aiming fun, but ive got over that learning curve and hit 90% of the time - as a comparison class one PA's (plasma repeaters) on a SLF are far more devastating than any engineered rail gun... especially if you can aim, im lethal with a SLF but i enjoy rails and ships more so.

ps if we could have large rails or even huge rails

They are devastating in the right hands. There's a reason they are pretty much mandatory in PvP.

Your post unintentionally makes the case that gimbals are too strong and need a nerf, because ToT with auto-aiming weapons is more powerful, and it shouldn't be. FDev has continually rewarded low-skill weapons instead of high-skill.

 

[Aashenfox]

Here's the vid I was on about, I'm not that special so I was quite proud of this with a default settings X52, I'm getting better, but I need to tweak joystick exponentials (keep meaning to, if anyone's got software recommendations, I'd be glad to hear them, thanks), and I'll be pretty consistent.

Controlled his shield cells til he was down, then minced his power plant. At this range I could have been using sturdy mount, wouldn't have made any difference, except I wouldn't have had to hear heat warnings, but then I'd feel less ready for random pvp if it happened (long range more useful). Simple. Railguns FTW. By the way, re: heat warnings, I barely actually overheated at all, it's a fun set of weapons to manage. If anyone's curious the large (unused in the video) weapon in the centre hardpoint is a G5 long range gimballed thermal shock beam I use against eagles and sidewinders.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;Yf_zmehepJ4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_zmehepJ4[/video]

 

[Siranui]

yes but equally multicannons are crap vs shields (or should be) but i can strip shields at the same pace as a rail gun on small ships, Larger ships the rails are only better because i have more opportunities to fire on a large slow target, but overall aimbot multicannons are quicker at killing ships

Railguns should be devastating in the right hands not just "very powerful" because thats just offset vs time on target, vs good opponents who dont just sit there those that sit there deserve railing

what im trying to get at is yes a rail gun has 50 DPS vs a multicannons 12 but the multicannon is non stop firing with the gimbals constantly following the target not to mention drain on capacitor and heat created by rails vs multicannons which can just fire constantly with one pip in weapons

the same can be said for fixed weapons in general vs gimbal / turrets =/

i am playing on xbox too ... which makes aiming fun, but ive got over that learning curve and hit 90% of the time - as a comparison class one PA's (plasma repeaters) on a SLF are far more devastating than any engineered rail gun... especially if you can aim, im lethal with a SLF but i enjoy rails and ships more so.

ps if we could have large rails or even huge rails

They're already deadly and incredibly popular. You want them more powerful? Because they 'deserve' to be OP because you have to aim them and they are your favourites? :O

Super penetrator and feedback cascade are so-good-as-to-be-no-brainers already. There is plenty that a rail can do that MCs cannot. And MCs are just better at sustained DPS and always will and should be!

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

They are devastating in the right hands. There's a reason they are pretty much mandatory in PvP.

Your post unintentionally makes the case that gimbals are too strong and need a nerf, because ToT with auto-aiming weapons is more powerful, and it shouldn't be. FDev has continually rewarded low-skill weapons instead of high-skill.

probably why it irritates me because you can just fly in the general direction with 0 skill and cause more damage than a skilled pilot with fixed.

They're already deadly and incredibly popular. You want them more powerful? Because they 'deserve' to be OP because you have to aim them and they are your favourites? :O

Super penetrator and feedback cascade are so-good-as-to-be-no-brainers already. There is plenty that a rail can do that MCs cannot. And MCs are just better at sustained DPS and always will and should be!

why should they? its 0 skill to fit gimballed MC's and hold a trigger down.

 

[Aashenfox]

probably why it irritates me because you can just fly in the general direction with 0 skill and cause more damage than a skilled pilot with fixed.




why should they? its 0 skill to fit gimballed MC's and hold a trigger down.

See my video in the spoiler, and answer honestly, do you really think they need to be made better? That's all that matters mate, using them right for what they should be used for. I'm not trying to be condescending or smart, it's just they are SERIOUSLY OP as they are. Already THE single strongest damage weapon in the game (under a specific circumstance, but one that happens often).

 

[zzzztxr]

Outside of the fact that this is game and railguns are one of the biggies. Module damage without hull damage would be expected. It's a small slug of metal running through your ship. Hits anything complicated (like a module) its important. Hits a big thing (like your hull), slap a 30th century bandaid on it and you are good

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

See my video in the spoiler, and answer honestly, do you really think they need to be made better? That's all that matters mate, using them right for what they should be used for. I'm not trying to be condescending or smart, it's just they are SERIOUSLY OP as they are. Already THE single strongest damage weapon in the game (under a specific circumstance, but one that happens often).

if you had stuck full Gimballed multicannons with grade 5 engineering and simply held your finger on the trigger you would have killed the NPC in the same time, if not quicker because of ToT, which is just wrong...

 

[Aashenfox]

if you had stuck full Gimballed multicannons with grade 5 engineering and simply held your finger on the trigger you would have killed the NPC in the same time, if not quicker because of ToT, which is just wrong...

I don't think that is true, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Feel free to prove me wrong, and outfit a python with all MCs (I'll even let you use the large hardpoint that I didn't use), and kill a deadly Corvette in quicker time. I'll even let you take more damage than I did if you want, you can have up to 10% damage (I took 4%). I mention damage because I was able to kill that Corvette while largely staying out of his weapons arc. If I wanted to face tank everything, I'd be going back to the station for repairs constantly (note how I was on low ammo and 95% health at the beginning of the fight? This is because this was the third Corvette I had killed without docking (all pirate lords) in a half hour). You see railguns are also about efficiency. The shield on that python is only 380mj.

If you count the number of times I pulled the trigger, it was a very, very efficient kill. Yes, an average player would certainly find it 'easier' to win with a full gimbal loadout, but I do not believe that same player would be able to do it faster than I did using PAs and rails (mainly because of the need to burst dps the shield cells). You can't buff them, because then people like me who are decent with rails would be roflstomping all comers. Part of the reason I use and love them is because many people can't get on with them. Rightly or wrongly, I consider them a weapon of the elite, no pun intended.

I do get what you mean about time on target, but rails are utility, the damage is just a bonus. If you were saying that fixed beams need a buff for this reason, I'd agree, but not railguns.

Also, obviously, I had a lot more fun than face tanking dakka-dakka, and practiced my evasive flying as well as tactical management of high heat weapons, improving my skill.

 

[Poseidal]

Is the way to go long range or sturdy?

The damage drop off for rails was quite harsh IIRC.