Randomise Suit/Weapon Mod stats

[JTFireblaze]

Instead of us having to gather dozens of random materials, pay ridiculous amounts of credits, and go to one of the 9 people in the galaxy who apparently know how to attach a scope to a rifle:

We should be able to get mods from scavenging and mission rewards.

• Scavenge a POI with weapon crates in, give a chance to discover a weapon mod
• Do a mission, have a reward that is a mod
• Leave engineering for modifying, upgrading and experimental mods.
• Purchase low to medium tier mods from Pioneer supplies, like we can purchase low to medium tier suits and weapons.

A couple of examples:

• A backpack mod that provides a random amount of slots. An engineer can upgrade the backpack mod until it reaches the maximum slots
• A scope mod that provides a random zoom level. An engineer can refine the scope to reach it's optimal zoom.

Basically, add random stat mods when out and about so that people can get used to modifying weapons and suits, then make Engineers the way to refine your mods and add experimentals to them (eg thermal rounds on a kinetic weapon's ammo mod, bi-weave experimental on a shield mod)

It would allow players to dip their toes into the mod system without a massive up front grind, encouraging them to explore to find new random roll mods, and offer an alternative gameplay loop that isn't just fetching materials.



Edit:

Counter to varonica's argument about randomisation below.

The mods that drop would have random stats, yes, between a minimum and maximum threshold for their item. But they would have flat improvement upgrades to get them to their maximum stat using Engineers.

Example:

You find a battery mod that gives you +27% extra capacity.
You would be able to take it to an engineer and push it to the +50% the current mod can, for a reduced price.

 

[varonica]

Ah yes the old randomized engineering stats that were vociferously complained about for ship engineering and eventually removed for a flat improvement should be re-introduced for suit engineering, that will go down well!

 

[JTFireblaze]

Ah yes the old randomized engineering stats that were vociferously complained about for ship engineering and eventually removed for a flat improvement should be re-introduced for suit engineering, that will go down well!

Nice.

Let me specify a little more to ease your woes:

• You can buy or find a mod with a random stat between a minimum and maximum value. eg +1 slot to +10 slots on a "backpack mod"
• You can equip that mod and get some benefit now.
• You can then go to an engineer to upgrade that mod to it's maximum value.

So you still have your flat improvements, but you can also get stuff while you're actually playing the game.

 

[varonica]

Nice.

Let me specify a little more to ease your woes:

• You can buy or find a mod with a random stat between a minimum and maximum value. eg +1 slot to +10 slots on a "backpack mod"
• You can equip that mod and get some benefit now.
• You can then go to an engineer to upgrade that mod to it's maximum value.

So you still have your flat improvements, but you can also get stuff while you're actually playing the game.

You understand the reason people complained about the engineering previously? It led to players endlessly re-rolling modules, sometimes thousands of times, to get the best module stats, some people still use maxed modules from the old engineering, where in your suggestion are you eliminating the endless search for an item with just the right random stat?

To be honest I am not against randomised stats in equipment, many MMO's use this method to differentiate gear, but after the ship module engineering brouhaha I just can't see any sort of randomised system gaining any traction here.

 

[CMDR Charybdis]

You understand the reason people complained about the engineering previously? It led to players endlessly re-rolling modules, sometimes thousands of times, to get the best module stats, some people still use maxed modules from the old engineering, where in your suggestion are you eliminating the endless search for an item with just the right random stat?

You could of course search for the random base stat that you want, but that misses the point of the post. The problem with the original Horizons engineer system was that each roll was random and didn't take any previous contribution into account (this seems to be your core objection).

The proposal above has the upgrade already having made some progress on the engineering path, and you can then build on that (as per the current engineering model).

A win all round for those who want to RNG find, and those who want steady progression of what they have already found.

 

[JTFireblaze]

You understand the reason people complained about the engineering previously? It led to players endlessly re-rolling modules, sometimes thousands of times, to get the best module stats, some people still use maxed modules from the old engineering, where in your suggestion are you eliminating the endless search for an item with just the right random stat?

To be honest I am not against randomised stats in equipment, many MMO's use this method to differentiate gear, but after the ship module engineering brouhaha I just can't see any sort of randomised system gaining any traction here.

The random stats are on the item you pick up. It's a +3 to +5 backpack slot mod.

You take it to an engineer who, through engineering, can upgrade it from +5 to a bigger number, up to whatever the current backpack slot mod is.

You can still go buy a mod, you can still go get the fully engineered mod from the engineer. This would be a way for someone to get some halfway mods as part of normal gameplay.

I know all of the concerns people had over previous engineering. I was there. I sat through random rolls that would break my ship because of negative effects. I'm not saying the re-rolling should be random. I'm not saying that re-rolling should give you negative stats. I'm saying you should be able to buy or find "less stats than the current engineered" mods doing actual game stuff, then upgrade them to their max.

People would be able to get some stuff through actually playing the game, then can refine the mods they've found to get them to max stats.

 

[varonica]

You could of course search for the random base stat that you want, but that misses the point of the post. The problem with the original Horizons engineer system was that each roll was random and didn't take any previous contribution into account (this seems to be your core objection).

The proposal above has the upgrade already having made some progress on the engineering path, and you can then build on that (as per the current engineering model).

A win all round for those who want to RNG find, and those who want steady progression of what they have already found.

One of the main problems with RNG is that the drops basically reflect a bell curve of the player base, there will always be that one player who never gets any drops at all. This is why RNG in most MMO's isn't actually true RNG, it's always weighted in some way so that there's a drop rate that doesn't actually reflect the true value of RNG values. I don't have an issue with the personally as I said, but unless you take that into account it's going to be a problem, because there are some people who really hate RNG. Just a quick browse around on other thread I can see responses that state they will never support any RNG regardless of what you do with it.

I don't think there's anything you can put forward to those players that will change their opinion.

 

[CMDR Charybdis]

One of the main problems with RNG is that the drops basically reflect a bell curve of the player base, there will always be that one player who never gets any drops at all. This is why RNG in most MMO's isn't actually true RNG, it's always weighted in some way so that there's a drop rate that doesn't actually reflect the true value of RNG values.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "true" RNG here, because that's what a Bell curve represents. For the MMOs that I've played a random drop is flagged with its scarcity - high value items drop rarely. It's still random. Calling it random shouldn't be confused with "all outcomes are equally likely".

So more strictly speaking there will be that one player who stops the search for the item before the RNG does actually give them the item - it depends on the scarcity and the time spent. Some items are super rare and while I get that there are players who invest time in "random rolls" over "steady progress", that's a personal choice with a self-inflicted personal frustration attached.

I don't have an issue with the personally as I said, but unless you take that into account it's going to be a problem, because there are some people who really hate RNG. Just a quick browse around on other thread I can see responses that state they will never support any RNG regardless of what you do with it.

I don't think there's anything you can put forward to those players that will change their opinion.

This is why there are two progression systems, not just the one of a random find on its own. If you happen to find a better version of the item then you've skipped some of the steady progress (don't get caught up in the sunk cost fallacy).

Invest time wisely, and for your own satisfaction, rather than trying to emulate that one lucky person on Reddit who posted a pic?

Edit: added comment about bell curve.

 

[Morbad]

Invest time wisely, and for your own satisfaction, rather than trying to emulate that one lucky person on Reddit who posted a pic?

In a multiplayer game, where there are a variety of cooperative and competitive endeavors, where the relative capabilities of one's character can be relevant, this isn't even close to the point.

That said, being able to reach the same ends via the more standard/formulaic upgrade path could mitigate most of the problems with the original system.

 

[JTFireblaze]

being able to reach the same ends via the more standard/formulaic upgrade path could mitigate most of the problems with the original system.

That's what I was trying to describe before varonica jumped in with "randomised engineering bad"

The "ends" are the current tier of engineering mods. But you should be able to get some basic stuff for cheap from Pioneer Supplies, mission rewards, or scavenging, then upgrade it to get to the top tier.

Give the player a reward that gets them on to weapon and suit mods, then encourage them to upgrade them.

Not all RNG is bad, especially if you can use resources to "fix" a less powerful drop.

 

[CMDR Charybdis]

In a multiplayer game, where there are a variety of cooperative and competitive endeavors, where the relative capabilities of one's character can be relevant, this isn't even close to the point.

That said, being able to reach the same ends via the more standard/formulaic upgrade path could mitigate most of the problems with the original system.

So what would the point be then? Genuinely curious, I haven't caught the conversation in the other threads that have been alluded to.

 

[Morbad]

So what would the point be then? Genuinely curious, I haven't caught the conversation in the other threads that have been alluded to.

The point is that, in a multiplayer game, one's own capabilities relative to others matters. The game incentivies this and much gameplay is based around this. Doing things purely for one's own satisfaction requires living in a bubble and ignoring much of what the game offers.

Equipment is a big part of being competitive, or being able to pull one's weight. Often, as is the case with indirect conflict or more cooperative play, the effects are subtle, but in some cases even mild statistical disadvantages can be quite overt. When you're the slowest FDL in a battle featuring eight FDLs, or have to strip 20% of your shielding off your ship to keep up with a running firefight, having put in twice the work of some others just to suffer a significant statistical handicap against them is enough to make almost anyone resentful of the system.

I went from being primarily an FDL pilot to flying just about everything else, for most of the old engineering system, which lasted about two years. This wasn't by choice, it was because, after about a thousand G5 rolls, I didn't have a competitive set of FDL thrusters. Nine out of ten peer-level players had a better ship than I did, in ways that no amount of build ingenuity could compensate for...there is simply no substitute for high optimal mass and high optimal multiplier on a set of thrusters going into a top teir combat vessel. You can see this reflected in the phenomenal level of inflation added to the game when 3.0 dropped and they had to make sure no legacy thruster could compete with the new system's.

In the end it wasn't the end of the world, as I had plenty of equipment suitable for plenty of other ships and was able to leverage them in enjoyable ways...but these should have been gameplay choices, not something mandated by RNG inflated grind.

Also, while it certainly doesn't excuse such behavior, such systems introduced an extreme incentive to cheat, which is where things like that five-for-one exploit came in. Some of the people I was fighting with or against had abused an exploit to be able to dump several thousand extra rolls into their modules with minimal effort. I know of others who were paying people to grind for them, adding an undesirable element of pay-to-win to the game.

The PvP examples are the more extreme ones, but the same general ideal applies to all sorts of activities. Have a rare undersized class 5 shield that works on a Cutter? Well, you can stay immune to hostiles while carrying that much more cargo and shifting influence that much faster. Have an exceptionally good FSD and a few underweight modules for an Anaconda? Well, you are going to be able to set navigation records and record first discoveries that others had no hope of achieving, simply because you got better rolls.

It's not about matching what someone posted on Reddit or the forums, it's about the difference between victory and defeat, escape and ship loss, which faction or power controls which systems, whose name is plastered on the map, or what groups one can tag along with without being an undue burden...all in-game.

I firmly believe that Frontier's de facto solution to these, and other, issues amounted to broadly undermining consequence and agency for everyone. They made RNG and exploit driven differences less meaningful by making everything less meaningful and (probably irreparably) damaged the game in the process. Even if for those who don't care one whit about the aspects of the setting that are influenced by player activity, it's likely harder to ignore Frontier's hamfisted attempts at balancing these things and we'd all be better off if they put a bit more forethought into this stuff.

 

[varonica]

I'm really not sure what you mean by "true" RNG here, because that's what a Bell curve represents. For the MMOs that I've played a random drop is flagged with its scarcity - high value items drop rarely. It's still random. Calling it random shouldn't be confused with "all outcomes are equally likely".

That's the point I was making, for a true RNG following a bell curve there will be players who never get drops, ever. This is why MMO's almost never use straight RNG but a weighted drop system, there will never be a player who gets nothing and there will never be a player who gets everything, you must create the system so that it treats all players almost equally.

FDEV did this by removing the RNG altogether and making everything a flat buff for the same effort for all players.

 

[JTFireblaze]

RNG. Bell Curves. The downsides of the original ship engineers... man. Y'all know how to derail a suggestion.

All I wanted to suggest was that you could find mods that were weaker than the current suit engineer mods through organic gameplay, then upgrade them to the engineered tier.

I could find a mod that has stats equivalent to between 25% and 75% the stats of the current engineered one. From missions, POIs, or even Pioneer Supplies for credits.

Then I could equip it and use it.

And I could go to an engineer who could refine it to it's full potential.

That's it...

 

[GloatingSwine]

To be honest, I'm not sure what problem this solves.

The prices of engineering a mod onto a suit are trivial compared to the price of unlocking the mod slot to attach it to by upgrading the suit.

Suit engineering only really needs the ability to overwrite a mod, and the emergence of a sensible and stable way to get goods and data to do the upgrades (because some things can be traded for but some can't, and there's no understandable bright line difference between them to say why one can and the other can't)

 

[CMDR Charybdis]

The point is that, in a multiplayer game, one's own capabilities relative to others matters. The game incentivies this and much gameplay is based around this. Doing things purely for one's own satisfaction requires living in a bubble and ignoring much of what the game offers.

Thank you for taking the time to write this up your experiences of the issues. Very sincerely and genuinely appreciated CMDR.

That's the point I was making, for a true RNG following a bell curve there will be players who never get drops, ever. This is why MMO's almost never use straight RNG but a weighted drop system, there will never be a player who gets nothing and there will never be a player who gets everything, you must create the system so that it treats all players almost equally.

FDEV did this by removing the RNG altogether and making everything a flat buff for the same effort for all players.

Respectfully, it is and remains straight RNG. Receiving a discardable near zero value "trash" item from a drop table replaces "no-drop". It's still all random and there are still players that never get the items of greatest scarcity.

There's lots of wriggle room in "almost equally", and making everything a flat buff does treat all players equally... so I'm really not clear on the middle ground that you're asking for? To be clear - I understand the wish, I don't know what implementation would deliver it to you.

Much of this is managed in MMOs by having a trading system between players (a rather complex system to introduce and manage). Players determine the value of the item being bought and sold. Diablo III closed their trading system, and Guild Wars 2 recently banned a player for using high value item duplication bugs. Integrity of the system is .... difficult.

All I wanted to suggest was that you could find mods that were weaker than the current suit engineer mods through organic gameplay, then upgrade them to the engineered tier.

Well I've enjoyed a few of the unintended and side-tracked conversations along the way. Oh and still like the original idea o7.

 

[JTFireblaze]

To be honest, I'm not sure what problem this solves.

The prices of engineering a mod onto a suit are trivial compared to the price of unlocking the mod slot to attach it to by upgrading the suit.

Suit engineering only really needs the ability to overwrite a mod, and the emergence of a sensible and stable way to get goods and data to do the upgrades (because some things can be traded for but some can't, and there's no understandable bright line difference between them to say why one can and the other can't)

It introduces people to how mods work earlier, so they don't need to go through the initial unlocking an engineer.

It adds an extra reward to taking part in gameplay. You might get a mod and it might be halfways to decent just from scavenging, or missions. Another incentive to take part in stuff.

Like buying a pre-upgraded suit, which allows you to skip a couple of the early steps, you could even buy a (halfway) mod from a Pioneer Supplies. Use the same system where there are only a limited number for sale or something.

I agree that suit engineering definitely needs the ability to overwrite/replace a mod. Although I'd go one step further and say that instead of simply overwriting it, you bank it into an armoury of mods so you can refit it on another item.

Unless these engineers are really bad at their job and can't fit a scope correctly, so when you take it off it just breaks...

 

[GloatingSwine]

It introduces people to how mods work earlier, so they don't need to go through the initial unlocking an engineer.

Except not, because you need at least a G2 suit or weapon to equip a mod, and you will absolutely unlock your first engineer before you've got that because you can do that with a quick 100ly shuttle jaunt.

Mods are the cheap and fast bit of the new system, because their prices are trivial compared to the cost of the suit upgrades.

Making the components reliably accessible in sensible predictable ways and amounts is far more useful and rewarding.

 

[JTFireblaze]

Except not, because you need at least a G2 suit or weapon to equip a mod, and you will absolutely unlock your first engineer before you've got that because you can do that with a quick 100ly shuttle jaunt.

Mods are the cheap and fast bit of the new system, because their prices are trivial compared to the cost of the suit upgrades.

Making the components reliably accessible in sensible predictable ways and amounts is far more useful and rewarding.

Weird, I bought a G3 suit before unlocking an Engineer... I must be special.

Either way, I think adding these as random drops could add some nice rewards for gameplay rather than just materials.

I don't disagree on making material gathering more reliable though. Or at least them learning from previous Engineering mistakes (oh wait, they did, and ignored their own learnings)

 

[GloatingSwine]

Weird, I bought a G3 suit before unlocking an Engineer... I must be special.

Either way, I think adding these as random drops could add some nice rewards for gameplay rather than just materials.

I don't disagree on making material gathering more reliable though. Or at least them learning from previous Engineering mistakes (oh wait, they did, and ignored their own learnings)

You unlock your first engineer by travelling 100ly in shuttles. You can do that in about 20 minutes.