Reflections On Playing Other Games.

[-VR- Max Factor]

Then we agree to disagree.

About PVP, I think SDC's/Rinzler's (?) suggestions on this that was published a while ago are acceptable. I think a pirate 'superpower' should be introduced with 'laws' that suit PVPers. The bubble is big enough...

One observation: this discussion should be in the 'dangerous' threads, yet it would be impossible to have it in the same, civilized way.

I suppose it depends on what you want in the game. When that person was here we got "great" updates such as Powerplay, CQC, and all the horizons updates which a lot of them were barebones. Since he has left we have now got Beyond which is enhancing the game. Much better trade tools, better looking planets, an attempt to put in a better C&P system, hopefully better exploration and mining, plans for combat zones and res site and more BGS enhancements to come.

Really all of this stuff should have been coming in during the first season and the person who made those poor decisions has now gone to another game. The decision making seems to me to be a lot better and the game seems to be heading where I want it to which is a better PvE experience.

But it all depends on what you want from the game. We all have our own likes and dislikes, but from what I have seen so far, things seem to be heading in the right direction. Could be wrong though, so my hypemetre is still very low until I see things actually working and not some concept shots.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't know if they have or haven't and really haven't seen any evidence of either to be honest.

For me the updates have been in a better direction since someone left to go to another game within FDev.

That's my feelings on it. Also I think they need to just go down one route. Is the game a PvE game with a bit of PvP or a PvP game with a bit of PvP. They need to decide and stick with it. Trying to be everything for everyone does not work and the game will become a mess.

Even if I don't like the direction ED is and has been going I'd still say to better stick what vision the devs have. After all that's what we're paying for. Development by consent - I don't think that works well. I remember spending HOURS negotiating house rules for card games and rpgs until we finally started actually playing. Creative vision is all good, but you gotta accept other visions than your own to have variety. Might just not like it, but that is rather a problem of "games as a service" model when a product (pardon: service) updates - you will get screwed with that eventually.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Even if I don't like the direction ED is and has been going I'd still say to better stick what vision the devs have. After all that's what we're paying for. Development by consent - I don't think that works well. I remember spending HOURS negotiating house rules for card games and rpgs until we finally started actually playing. Creative vision is all good, but you gotta accept other visions than your own to have variety. Might just not like it, but that is rather a problem of "games as a service" model when a product (pardon: service) updates - you will get screwed with that eventually.

I agree. The devs need to make the decisions and make the game otherwise there will be arguments and a lot of issues with people going on about why their idea wasn't implemented. Some feedback of minor details like we have with the focus forums is fine. I think some assumed that the players would be making the decisions on how the major updates would work. Not gonna happen.

In every update so far there has usually been something i liked and was happy with. Some obviously I was very unhappy with, but new it was going to be a turkey from the beginning (looking at you multicrew). But some stuff they have got right, well for me anyway, like the SLF, I love flying around in those things and while I accept it could be even better with being able to see the NPC in the seat next to me and we could do with a whole NPC crew, it isn't awful or MVP or even barebones.

Powerplay for me was the biggest let down, I had a lot of hopes resting on that and thought it would add a lot of depth, alas how wrong was I. 3.0 on the other hand, for me has improved the process of engineers and made it fun (for me), still the issue of insane powercreep, but hopefully they will get that sorted in some way, trade tools now have some depth, I know people say 3rd party sites are better, but in VR I like to use in game tools and the new ones are a huge improvement which I enjoy and the landable planets look superb now.

Looking forward to Q4 as for me the quality of 3.0 (i know there are bugs, but they don't bother me as much as others) was far superior to any other update to date and if the Q4 is close to that or better, then I will be a very happy soul. I am sure it still won't be perfect, but what is.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Then we agree to disagree.

About PVP, I think SDC's/Rinzler's (?) suggestions on this that was published a while ago are acceptable. I think a pirate 'superpower' should be introduced with 'laws' that suit PVPers. The bubble is big enough...

One observation: this discussion should be in the 'dangerous' threads, yet it would be impossible to have it in the same, civilized way.

I would be PNG'd, again.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

All About EVE- If you Had Never Heard Of Elite, After Playing EVE

If I had no knowledge of the earlier versions of Elite, after playing EVE, I would say that Elite was the first-person version of EVE, without the features, and a mode that allowed PvE- only play. No mean bullies in lowsec. Also, no player agency.

EVE's travel, is if possible, more tedious than Elite's. It's only advantage is automatic docking/launching at stations is not considered a tribal rite-of-passage. One can actually nap, during passages in highsec, on autopilot. Trust me, you will need to.

EVE's barrage of menus, and icons is more confusing than Elite's, but gives fuller information. MUCH fuller.

EVE has a true "living and breathing" economy, background, and stories. This is an area where EVE hammers Elite.

EVE is openly "pay-to-win", but you can pay to skip grind. Elite is grind-to-win. Many of the most fanatic members of Beige Squadron squawking "handholding", and "easy mode" were permanently scarred, I believe, by coming from EVE's merciless grind. This applies to the ship insurance system too, where Elite's 5% rebuy, and restoration of all old gear, is not possible in EVE.

EVE has a free-to-play mode, but the grind is worse than Elite's.

In EVE, you can park, and play by arbitraging the market, or crafting. The information, and tools, are there. So are many of Elite's "placeholder" features, just fleshed out after more than a decade in development.

EVE has a single server, and a single shared instance, with no instancing issues, mostly. Elite was done on the cheap.

Elite's ships and graphics are far superior. This, and the SJA flight model, are where Elite crushes EVE.

Flying the ship, personally, is the reason for Elite's success. Having real control over the game is the reason for EVE's success.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

If I had no knowledge of the earlier versions of Elite, after playing EVE, I would say that Elite was the first-person version of EVE, without the features, and a mode that allowed PvE- only play. No mean bullies in lowsec. Also, no player agency.

EVE's travel, is if possible, more tedious than Elite's. It's only advantage is automatic docking/launching at stations is not considered a tribal rite-of-passage. One can actually nap, during passages in highsec, on autopilot. Trust me, you will need to.

EVE's barrage of menus, and icons is more confusing than Elite's, but gives fuller information. MUCH fuller.

EVE has a true "living and breathing" economy, background, and stories. This is an area where EVE hammers Elite.

EVE is openly "pay-to-win", but you can pay to skip grind. Elite is grind-to-win. Many of the most fanatic members of Beige Squadron squawking "handholding", and "easy mode" were permanently scarred, I believe, by coming from EVE's merciless grind. This applies to the ship insurance system too, where Elite's 5% rebuy, and restoration of all old gear, is not possible in EVE.

EVE has a free-to-play mode, but the grind is worse than Elite's.

In EVE, you can park, and play by arbitraging the market, or crafting. The information, and tools, are there. So are many of Elite's "placeholder" features, just fleshed out after more than a decade in development.

EVE has a single server, and a single shared instance, with no instancing issues, mostly. Elite was done on the cheap.

Elite's ships and graphics are far superior. This, and the SJA flight model, are where Elite crushes EVE.

Flying the ship, personally, is the reason for Elite's success. Having real control over the game is the reason for EVE's success.

There is one thing that stands out to me in this that I disagree with. ED is Grind to Win. I think this is all down to play style. I am not playing the game to win anything, I play it more as an experience, hence the reason why I do not grind for anything. I do not need to engineer all my ships from G1-G5 in one sitting, I don't care how long it takes for me to get to my goals as long as the experience is good.

So for me ED is Play to Experience, especially when in VR. But as to the rest, you are probably spot on. I haven't played EVE online so will have trust your judgement on that.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Got lots of +1's, no replies.

Must mean I am completely wrong, as usual.

Actually, I think the only thing you got wrong was the idea that EVE has a larger player base than Elite does. IIRC, back before SteamSpy went pay to access, ED consistently had a larger active player base, with both higher median and average weekly hours played, than EVE did. EVE, otoh, did beat out ED when it came to maximum daily concurrent players, but that’s could easily be a function of where it’s playerbase is located.

 

[Mengy]

On reflecting about Elite while playing other games….

I fly flight simulator games a lot, and I always fly with a companion app called Flight Sim Economy (FSE) which injects a virtual pilot career RPG of sorts into the sim, keeping track of planes you ow and their locations, fuel use and aircraft breakdowns, maintenance fees. It also allows you to accept jobs and fly them for money between airports all over the world. In some ways it’s a lot like hauling in Elite but in airplanes and with more role playing elements to it.

One thing you can also do in FSE is build FBO’s at airports, or buy them from the “for sale” page. An FBO is a flight office which can issue jobs and such, and different sized airports can support a limited number of these. Owning one allows you a measure of control over types of jobs and their possible destinations. They also use supplies to maintain which must be bought, but the income generation can still make you a profit with work. It grants the player a nice way to own a slice of the world, and the added business management aspect to it is a lot like what Euro Truck Sim has but even more in depth. If you have the money you can even own lots of FBO’s and chain them together to create a large network to fly.

I often feel like Elite could use something like this in its game world. A way for players to “own a slice” of the world. The obvious and most requested means of this is player built outposts or surface bases. However, I wonder if something less “permanent” might work better? Instead of building physical player owned assets in Elite, it might be nice to treat Elite stations like FSE airports. Allow players to start up FBO’s of their own at stations which could offer player configured services like jobs and commodity trading and such, where the players can set the job types and commodity prices. Essentially make player factions something tangible with a certain amount of actual control in the game world.

I think something like this in Elite could add tremendous value to the multiplayer experience of the game, while also providing solo player content as well.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That’s kind of how I treat my home station, with the assumption that when I’m not there, my people are flying some of my stable of ships, though the profits go right into my business (Stevenson Whirlwind Adventures), my Estate on Emerald, and the Stevenson Financial Aid program.

I’ve actually got a list of 26 NPCs who make up my staff, including my long suffering chief of staff, Gyeong Castro, who originally started as the technician I hired to keep my original Cobra, Slave of the Empire, running.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Elite could use some Fixed Base Operators (for the aviation-impaired). Player agency is what is lacking.

I have *got* to remember to get that FSE app. Thanks, Mengy. One more FBO at KCPS coming up...

 

[krylite]

Having a shared universe could be part of FD's ten year plan for ED. When atmospherics comes, there's going to be a lot more textures, modeling, and details required. ( same with spacelegs locations). ([url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz3nhCykZNw+]Discovery Scanner 1 - Creating a Galaxy with Dr Anthony Ross [/url]) With ED's established "cloud" of servers, more persistent data could be loaded as needed from its web services. Consider that currently FSX to get photoreal scenery over the most all the entire land areas of Earth needs several gigabytes storage. (example, www.megascenery.com), and that one can see the satellite and elevation photodata on demand with google Earth. ED's shared universe assets in the future may very well be conducive to ED's future of showing detailed atmospheric worlds with unique persistent assets over billions of planets and locations..

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Having a shared universe could be part of FD's ten year plan for ED. When atmospherics comes, there's going to be a lot more textures, modeling, and details required. ( same with spacelegs locations). (Discovery Scanner 1 - Creating a Galaxy with Dr Anthony Ross ) With ED's established "cloud" of servers, more persistent data could be loaded as needed from its web services. Consider that currently FSX to get photoreal scenery over the most all the entire land areas of Earth needs several gigabytes storage. (example, www.megascenery.com), and that one can see the satellite and elevation photodata on demand with google Earth. ED's shared universe assets in the future may very well be conducive to ED's future of showing detailed atmospheric worlds with unique persistent assets over billions of planets and locations..

If there is anything nasty on those Brave New Worlds, I am *not* getting off the boat.

 

[MTBFritz]

Replying to the OP didnt read through the pages yet.

You dont give us a whole lot to discuss. You present a reflection of yours thats all. That being said I agree with you. I also admire EVE for the game it is. Its frightening and its unforgiving, sometimes downright brutal but its exceptional and awesome at the same time. I think comparing EVE to ED isnt quite fair because the focus of both games is different. Yes both games are placed in space and both games have ships but thats where similarities end. EVE is a game that you cannot play on your own. I mean you do but imagine you d be the only player on the shard....despite being a safer placer and allowing you to do all the things you currently cannot...EVE would be a lesser game. ED on the other hand offers multiplayer capabilities but the core of the game is designed around a single player. That entails a market which is not player driven and providing content that keeps you engaged. There is no exploring in EVE, at least not for traveling to distant places like its the case in ED. You explore in EVE to make cash, how space looks around you isnt important and the locations isnt either. Wherever you find phat staches is a great spot for exploring.

Some people will say ED is "shallow" but that depends entirely on you and how you play it. When I play ED and have the feeling that I actually have a real space craft at my fingertips giving me vertigo in wild manouvers then thats why I play it. EVE doesnt provide that kind of entertainment. So different games.

I wish there was a EVE single player game. Because a lot of the EVE content is obstructed for me. Many of the best spots are taken already, whatever activity I try to excel in, the competition always are old players who are dug in and have the reserves, the resources and the connections. EVE in its current form FORCES me to make connections, to make deals, to make compromises and thats why I admire it. But thats not a good recipe for relaxed and entertaining gameplay for me. Like the looks of a specific ship? You can certainly get one in time (I actually like the skill system too) and with effort but if its one of the capital types chances are you ll lose it within the first 5 minutes if you undock.

Apart from the practical risks you suffer from your fellow players (orgs defending their turf, their spots or waging war) there are countless examples of people who simply want to grief you and do it in order to taste your tears. EVE is a game that allows human misery and cruelty in its fullest. Probably also the reason why its not bigger then it is. At its core EVE online is a human resource game. You strike deals, you band together, you seek strength and safety in numbers and you dominate wherever you can. But you dont dominate the game NPCs, you dominate fellow human players. Its exciting and its thrilling and its absolutely NO FUN when you are the one being dominated. On the side you have space themed ships and mechanics...which is nice but thats not why people play EVE.

ED on the other hand tries to be a space simulator first and content like missions are secondary. But it does nail the space sim part and Frontier is still trying to add content. Maybe if they had access to 186 million dollars we would have a bigger game now but people decide for themselves how they want to spend their bucks. What companies can give us depends on the amount of support we give them in the first place.

EVE could be bigger if it had a bigger population. I personally hate the omega system and would be more then willing to pay a sub in order to have full access to everything. But apparently the majority of its players have a different opinion and view so we have the freemium system in place. If you consider that Frontier isnt charging a sub for the server use and only utilizes minor cosmetic sales in order to drive continous funding I m not sure we can complain about the lack of stuff to do. I still dont understand why Elite needs to be online in the first place but I cant change that anyway so why bother. I dont play ED in open for the reason you mention. I dont want to end up at the mercy of someone who happens to run into me with a superior ship when I m decked out for exploring. At least ED gives me the choice to enjoy the game how I want. Thats not a luxury that I have in EVE.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

My thanks for the thoughtful post.

This latest Steam sale has caused me to reflect that as gamers, not every game can satisfy all needs. I've picked up some old favorites. Some are still favorites, but others are...old.

Like me. The games that feel old have lost their replay value.

Note: If you really want to be depressed, pick up DEFCON, for $1.49 on Steam. It used to be great stress relief in years past, but now it's simply tiresome.