Ships Reiterate the Federal Gunship

[Julio Montega]

Ahoy lads,
let us point out some points why the FGS is a rather bad choice:

Base shield FDS 228
Base shield FGS 286

Dropship, hullmass 580 tons, cargo max 156 tons


Gunship, hullmass 580 tons, max cargo 168 tons

While the gunship has a larger internal space volume wise, the higher rated internal slots are a drawback.
The FDS has 7 internals, the gunship has 5 internals, this limits the versatility a lot.
The lacking agility would be o.k. if the internals were improved, like being split up to cater for even more internals,
actually allowing the FGS to do combat without being a paperplane.

Since shields are weak on the dropship series it would be substantial to have the possibility of being strong on the hull-defense (HRP) but the ship simply cannot cater to this,
due to limited internals:


Dropship maximum defense hull 3260 (military with HRP)

Gunship maximum defense 2775 hull (military + HRP)


FDS maximum Hybrid def normal 6A shield + military + HRP = 418 shield 2870 Armor


FGS maximum Hybrid def normal 6A shield + military + HRP = 514 shield 1790 Armor

Do you see the problem?
The combat ship with weak shields, that has to go for hull defense cannot do so, compared to the Dropship.
Basically the Dropship is faster, about as agile and has better defense, all at the measley cost of 2 small Hardpoints and even requiring less rank and being cheaper to afford!
You can argue on the one class higher weapons capacitor, but that isn't that big a factor in the current iteration of the game.
Also the FGS has 10 more tons of dead weight due to the higher classed sensors (which still are rather useless).

The 2 small hardpoints really don't support the current shortage on internals and the slow speed of the Gunship,
if turrets and missiles would be more useful, you could however fit a nice support ship with some conventional
weaponry (lasers/multicannons) and have missiles as backup.
Overall the FDS and FGS have some well placed internals,
making it really hard to hit vital modules from the front,
especially with HRPs the overall module protection is pretty sweet.

The Federal Dropship variants all have the same masslock factor, which is 14 due to coriolis,
i think this should be looked into aswell.

In addition here is some great video coverage of kornelius Briedis on the topic:
[video=youtube;wqb48cHvIao]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqb48cHvIao[/video]
Thoughts?

 

[Princess Nia]

needs an internal buff or match it's supercruise bugged manevuerability to it's real maneuverability

 

[Alex Brentnall]

4 medium railguns a large frag cannon and 2 small torpedoes are hard to argue against on a stealth alpha damage build in RES sites though...

Although I do get your point. Ship balance isn't perfect and I agree separating a few of the internals would make sense. BUT: Gunship is due a ship launched fighter iirc whereas the others are not. (may be misremembering on the assault ship but I thought it was only gunship and corvette from the 4 fed ones)...

 

[Chongo]

I've tried to make the gunship work. It has great hardpoint convergence so you can fit it with 7 rails for PVP and full stealth hrps simplex. The distributor handles the power draw wonderfully. But it's slow to turn, not much better than a FAS hull... it's more of a novelty build when you're with a wing to cover for you and your alpha. 1v1 it'll get chewed up by most common combat ships. It's great fun in a res with 5 plasmas as the convergence again is wonderful. But it's still lesser than the many other options.

With the limited internals it's a sad looking beast considering a Cobra MK 4 can basically achieve almost the same thing. Better even in some regards. And that's just sad.

You can assign blame in a multitude of directions. HRPs don't scale appropriately to module size? Not enough thought was put into the number of internals for pre-horizons content? Somehow a launched AI condor is going to make a big difference?

I dunno which one it is. The devs have great longterm goals/ vision, and I encourage them to stay the course and fight the forum kneejerks - but you can't deny that some ships are definitely still in the development phase prior to actual balance testing due to missing content.

 

[Zeta Legion]

I've tried to make the gunship work. It has great hardpoint convergence so you can fit it with 7 rails for PVP and full stealth hrps simplex. The distributor handles the power draw wonderfully. But it's slow to turn, not much better than a FAS hull... it's more of a novelty build when you're with a wing to cover for you and your alpha. 1v1 it'll get chewed up by most common combat ships. It's great fun in a res with 5 plasmas as the convergence again is wonderful. But it's still lesser than the many other options.

With the limited internals it's a sad looking beast considering a Cobra MK 4 can basically achieve almost the same thing. Better even in some regards. And that's just sad.

You can assign blame in a multitude of directions. HRPs don't scale appropriately to module size? Not enough thought was put into the number of internals for pre-horizons content? Somehow a launched AI condor is going to make a big difference?

I dunno which one it is. The devs have great longterm goals/ vision, and I encourage them to stay the course and fight the forum kneejerks - but you can't deny that some ships are definitely still in the development phase prior to actual balance testing due to missing content.

The FGS is one of the worst investments in the game when it comes to combat. Good for novelty builds but incompetent at everyday scenarios.

Personally I'd lay blame on the lumbering pace the ship turns and moves at. Were it at least as agile as the Python, with a better top speed, there might be something of value there. Gluing more armor or shields by adding internals or something is just gonna make it into a smaller version of the Cutter; durable, but an awful dogfighter.

 

[BostromNZ]

BUT: Gunship is due a ship launched fighter iirc whereas the others are not. (may be misremembering on the assault ship but I thought it was only gunship and corvette from the 4 fed ones)...

They will need to buff the ship launched fighters from their Arena counterparts because in CZs, crime sweeps etc they are one, two shot kills if you're packing any kind of decent weaponry. If that's all you get before having to buy a new fighter when docked then they will be virtually useless.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I winged up with a fellow CMDR in a FGS the other night for some PP undermining. If nothing else, that ship looks very cool, never realised it was so sexy (especially in VR). It felt like he had beams and PA bursts coming out of everywhere.

 

[Princess Nia]

I've tried to make the gunship work. It has great hardpoint convergence so you can fit it with 7 rails for PVP and full stealth hrps simplex. The distributor handles the power draw wonderfully. But it's slow to turn, not much better than a FAS hull... it's more of a novelty build when you're with a wing to cover for you and your alpha. 1v1 it'll get chewed up by most common combat ships. It's great fun in a res with 5 plasmas as the convergence again is wonderful. But it's still lesser than the many other options.

With the limited internals it's a sad looking beast considering a Cobra MK 4 can basically achieve almost the same thing. Better even in some regards. And that's just sad.

You can assign blame in a multitude of directions. HRPs don't scale appropriately to module size? Not enough thought was put into the number of internals for pre-horizons content? Somehow a launched AI condor is going to make a big difference?

I dunno which one it is. The devs have great longterm goals/ vision, and I encourage them to stay the course and fight the forum kneejerks - but you can't deny that some ships are definitely still in the development phase prior to actual balance testing due to missing content.

you run through your sinks like mad if you wanna run 7 rails, youre much better off in a dropship with 4 rails with better armor. also the convergence for 7 rails just isnt there.

youre getting 2 more small hardpoints which is basically 1 medium (with some damage fall off) for like 400-600 less armor. It's just not a good ship.

 

[Julio Montega]

4 medium railguns a large frag cannon and 2 small torpedoes are hard to argue against on a stealth alpha damage build in RES sites though...

Although I do get your point. Ship balance isn't perfect and I agree separating a few of the internals would make sense. BUT: Gunship is due a ship launched fighter iirc whereas the others are not. (may be misremembering on the assault ship but I thought it was only gunship and corvette from the 4 fed ones)...

We still don't know how the ship-guardian fighter will be implemented and i am very much thinking they use another internal module,
which will be a waste of useful space.
But discussing that is irrelevant until it is implemented.

Meta builds have high alpha, yes, don't forget though that more internals will allow the ship to fill several roles.
Need an armored transport? Need a ship with slots for all the tools you need for piracy? Need something that can stay alive in tough combat?
Wan't to get past that blockade and grab the sweet artifact right besides those 3 condas and 2 vultures?
Go Gunship,
well when it is useful at all.

It is shameful for ED to integrate a new ship,
that is right on useless.

 

[Chongo]

you run through your sinks like mad if you wanna run 7 rails, youre much better off in a dropship with 4 rails with better armor. also the convergence for 7 rails just isnt there.

youre getting 2 more small hardpoints which is basically 1 medium (with some damage fall off) for like 400-600 less armor. It's just not a good ship.

I can nail an fdl with all 7 - not talking module snipes, but they'll all connect. It's pretty good convergence (especially looking at the abomination of convergence one federal grade up). And yes, it's a one fight rig as you'll burn through sinks. That said - I was criticizing it, it's a novelty ship, and I'm going to gut mine shortly (again) to fit another FDL to park in imperial space. I currently run my FAS, FDL, DBS or Vette for combat - so definitely wasn't promoting it. There's absolutely no reason currently to touch any fed ship other than the FAS for the most part.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

We still don't know how the ship-guardian fighter will be implemented and i am very much thinking they use another internal module,
which will be a waste of useful space.
But discussing that is irrelevant until it is implemented.

Meta builds have high alpha, yes, don't forget though that more internals will allow the ship to fill several roles.
Need an armored transport? Need a ship with slots for all the tools you need for piracy? Need something that can stay alive in tough combat?
Wan't to get past that blockade and grab the sweet artifact right besides those 3 condas and 2 vultures?
Go Gunship,
well when it is useful at all.

It is shameful for ED to integrate a new ship,
that is right on useless.

I have a feeling it won't use an internal module actually. I mean all ships with fighters confirmed so-far (keelback, gunship etc) have been complained about. A straight 1 time buff of fighter kinda makes sense but you are correct discussing it is a tad pointless right now

Just because it's useless for your purposes does not mean it's totally useless. Have you tried doing a "Cut the power" or surface attack mission in this ship. The many many hardpoints allow it to have such a myriad of weapons you can equip yourself for anything really, 2 beams, 2 missile racks, 2 railguns, 2 multicannons. Yeah the internals suck but have you considered it's not there for what you are trying to do with it?
If you are doing piracy or blockade running you are after a fast ship so why even consider the FGS and then complain about it?

 

[Ceekay]

I agree it's never going to be a successful dogfighter but as Alex says 7 hard points give you a lot of options, my current (low cost) build has 4 energy weapons and 3 kinetic (3 x class 2 m-cannon, changing to 2 x class 2 + 1 class 3 when available (soon )).

Fit it with a scoop and a vehicle bay (material scavenging for kinetic reloads) and you could stay "on station/patrol" for a long time, certainly the bonkers SC agility and firepower would make it an excellent undermining ship.

 

[Julio Montega]

I have a feeling it won't use an internal module actually. I mean all ships with fighters confirmed so-far (keelback, gunship etc) have been complained about. A straight 1 time buff of fighter kinda makes sense but you are correct discussing it is a tad pointless right now

Just because it's useless for your purposes does not mean it's totally useless. Have you tried doing a "Cut the power" or surface attack mission in this ship. The many many hardpoints allow it to have such a myriad of weapons you can equip yourself for anything really, 2 beams, 2 missile racks, 2 railguns, 2 multicannons. Yeah the internals suck but have you considered it's not there for what you are trying to do with it?
If you are doing piracy or blockade running you are after a fast ship so why even consider the FGS and then complain about it?

I have used the FGS mainly as a space-to-ground strike craft,
that is a role it can fit, however it does lack a lot of vertical thrust to be a key-choice for that situation,
navigating the planet in a dogfighting way even is problematic, since the downward thrust is way less powerful.
So no fancy atmo-flight maneuvering.
You gotta fly it like an attack chopper, thrusting upwards and forwards while pitching to -30°,
which i really like, especially style wise-

It has got the weapon-hardpoints to be a real swiss-army-knife,
but don't forget the Horizons planetside stuff, still is early.
While it currently doesn't pose a great threat you can even have a DBS be a great gunship for strike and infiltration purposes.

So i rather think, that without any real threat and damage from planetary weapons (quip PDF and be safe),
you should look into integrating it into Space duty aswell.
As a military ship, a gunship has to calculate in engagements in space,
which it will not survive due to the aforementioned factors.
It still has the firepower, but without necessary speed to bring it to bear,
that is pretty much useless and the other pilots will dictate the engagement on you.

Unless you are solemnly attacking anacondas or t9s you will have the stick in the engagement,
speedwise.
So can it fulfill the gunship role space to ground?
Yep.
Can it fulfill the gunship role space to space?
Not with that speed and paper-armor.

Rating a ship on pure meta-builds (full rails or 6 torps 1 beam) is not the way i want to see ships
be designed.
After all the ship is a derivate from an "attack-transport" which the dropship should resemble,
while not being too successful doing so (powerplant/fsd easily hit and penetrated from back).
It is natural to use an armored transport as an alternative to a small and fast ship
to run through blockades, how else would you get troopers and highly volatile cargo through?

So what can be done to increase the viability?
I think there are two things that are possible:
1) Increase Internals by splitting up 1xC6 and increase the speed slightly, so the outcome is a bit below a dropship. <- so you can choose to optimize HP
2) Increase Utility slots catering to more PDF or shield boosters to even suit the role better and increase the speed slightly as 1)

 

[Alex Brentnall]

<Snip>

Have to rep you. I agree with everything you are saying, I just don't fully agree with what you are suggesting.
Not sure what will "fix" the gunship but I don't think that's it.

On the whole derivative of attack transport I'd disagree and liken it more to the Russian heavy MI-24 Hind than say an agile Apache or whatever.
My view of the gunship in a combat role would be support for the Corvette/Farragut against large ships like Cutters and Capitals hitting hard against a weakpoint or two. In that role Assault ships and other more fighter based ships would be clearing the "airspace" around protecting the flagship and it's entourage (gunships). Don't really see it as a transport or blockade runner at all. More of an airborne artillery piece But maybe that's just my perception..
If I were in the Fed navy Assault would be my air to air, gunship my artillery and Dropship as the transport all moving into the danger zone in that order. Take out the Fighters, take out the heavy ships, move in and take the planet with similar on the ground but substitute heavy ships for ground defences.

 

[Julio Montega]

Have to rep you. I agree with everything you are saying, I just don't fully agree with what you are suggesting.
Not sure what will "fix" the gunship but I don't think that's it.

On the whole derivative of attack transport I'd disagree and liken it more to the Russian heavy MI-24 Hind than say an agile Apache or whatever.
My view of the gunship in a combat role would be support for the Corvette/Farragut against large ships like Cutters and Capitals hitting hard against a weakpoint or two. In that role Assault ships and other more fighter based ships would be clearing the "airspace" around protecting the flagship and it's entourage (gunships). Don't really see it as a transport or blockade runner at all. More of an airborne artillery piece But maybe that's just my perception..
If I were in the Fed navy Assault would be my air to air, gunship my artillery and Dropship as the transport all moving into the danger zone in that order. Take out the Fighters, take out the heavy ships, move in and take the planet with similar on the ground but substitute heavy ships for ground defences.

I totally agree on the support role,
and it would fit it even better if turrets wouldn't be
as bad as they are currently.
Having 5 primary guns and two small turrets along with point defence as protection would be
a very in character solution to escorting the 'vette.
But in character is simply not effective...
As are missiles, but hearsay is that is going to change,
maybe it will shine in the escort role in the next few updates.

I just don't think the rather small increase in firepower
is a sufficient factor to justify the lack of armor and speed.

 

[Ceekay]

@Alex perhaps thinking of it as part of a carrier battle group might be closer, possibly fitted with turrets as a defence ship targeting small Empire fighters or as a heavy attack ship with say 5 x PA's and a hold full of heatsinks

It's also possible that FD currently aren't sure how to balance ship carried fighters so they've under specced the weapons a little, after all the FGS has enough power and PD to run 6 medium weapons and 1 large (perhaps the Corvette and Anaconda have 2 x small for the same reason) as opposed to the current hardpoints.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I really like the Gunship, although it does have its drawbacks currently, I think Alex is right, and this is because it (and the Keelback) are balanced around carrying a fighter. Because of that, I think until we see fighters and test it with that, we shouldn't bother to talk about changes to the ship, because we're working of incomplete data.

As an aside, based on the specs of the Gunship and Keelback, the specs of the other fighter-carrying vessels (Anaconda, Corvette, and Cutter), and looking at how SRV's were implemented, I am expecting fighter bays to be relatively heavy and power-intensive modules that go in standard slots (but are artificially limited to those ships). If I were a betting man, I would place money on seeing a C5 slot be able to take a bay for a single fighter, and a C7 slot allowing you to carry two fighters.

 

[K-Rose]

I love the Gunship, and this guy makes good use of it (better than I ever could): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET6fcFo6Cr8

I don't see you mention that it's getting a fighter as well, it's not always best to directly compare ships like this as everything has it's own role & character.

Just like cars, some are faster, some look better, some are more efficient, some carry families, some carry goods.

 

[Kaybe]

While I haven't done any PVP in her, I have flown her extensively and she is my 'main' combat ship.

First off, the class 7 PD and two additional small hardpoints are actually really really useful. With two small and one large gimballed beam, I can melt even an Anaconda's shield in record time ... and then still have four medium multis to shred the hull on top of that. With four pips in weapons, I can shoot ALL my weapons for an impressive amount of time. The FGS is a *MONSTER* in High Reses and Haz Reses. I regularly play chicken with Anacondas and come out on top with a barely scratched hull (although that might change with the AI boost in 2.1). Please note that she is currently the cheapest ship you can equip a class 7 PD on. All this being said, you really do need to learn how to fly with FA-Off to do well in her. If you don't know how to FA-Off, stick to using one of the more agile ships, like the Vulture or FAS.

Secondly, this ship is balanced with it's fighter bay in mind. Oh ... did you forget about that? The reason she seems gimp for the price is that as hard as she hits now, she'll hit *even harder* come 2.2. She's designed to be, well, a gunship ... a support ship complemented by other ships.

 

[Julio Montega]

I love the Gunship, and this guy makes good use of it (better than I ever could): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET6fcFo6Cr8

I don't see you mention that it's getting a fighter as well, it's not always best to directly compare ships like this as everything has it's own role & character.

Just like cars, some are faster, some look better, some are more efficient, some carry families, some carry goods.

While I haven't done any PVP in her, I have flown her extensively and she is my 'main' combat ship.

First off, the class 7 PD and two additional small hardpoints are actually really really useful. With two small and one large gimballed beam, I can melt even an Anaconda's shield in record time ... and then still have four medium multis to shred the hull on top of that. With four pips in weapons, I can shoot ALL my weapons for an impressive amount of time. The FGS is a *MONSTER* in High Reses and Haz Reses. I regularly play chicken with Anacondas and come out on top with a barely scratched hull (although that might change with the AI boost in 2.1). Please note that she is currently the cheapest ship you can equip a class 7 PD on. All this being said, you really do need to learn how to fly with FA-Off to do well in her. If you don't know how to FA-Off, stick to using one of the more agile ships, like the Vulture or FAS.

Secondly, this ship is balanced with it's fighter bay in mind. Oh ... did you forget about that? The reason she seems gimp for the price is that as hard as she hits now, she'll hit *even harder* come 2.2. She's designed to be, well, a gunship ... a support ship complemented by other ships.

I did not forget the fighter bay,
yet that is not ingame currently,
and apart from the FAS the dropship line
hardly does field the core dynamics trademarks:
- lower speed
- high agility

I would welcome the ability to customize the ship,
with the ability to decide to put in a fighter bay or not,
it is actually the same thing with the SRV, planetside content urges you
to run an SRV, lacking the choice.

Especially the agility is a sore thing currently,
hardpoints are no use if you cannot bring them to bear.
Reversing is a thing you can do, however as soon as you
are slower than the target they will maneuver to punish you.
2.1 makes the flaws more obvious.

It still has excellent internal protection,
yet it feels less an upgrade to the dropship
catering to combat support roles.
The hangar is not in for quite some time,
other ships and ship-ines get buffs,
dropships and gunships still left aside.

As an aside, based on the specs of the Gunship and Keelback, the specs of the other fighter-carrying vessels (Anaconda, Corvette, and Cutter), and looking at how SRV's were implemented, I am expecting fighter bays to be relatively heavy and power-intensive modules that go in standard slots (but are artificially limited to those ships). If I were a betting man, I would place money on seeing a C5 slot be able to take a bay for a single fighter, and a C7 slot allowing you to carry two fighters.

Power demanding equipment additional to weapons and shields on the gunship is another gripe,
if you fit it with power consuming weapons, or modded weapons you have to do some real power prioritizing.
I use a "special" loadout, leaving me allready at 97% power,
that is without the hangar bay being introduced into the game
and with low-powered bi-weaves.

 

[Gryphorim]

I've stated on other threads my hope to see dedicated turret weapon mounts introduced (by which I mean a rotating mount for 2 or more weapons together,) If they do, and this ship gets some, that might change this thing completely.

Other than that, I figure the FGS should have been the "long-body" variant of the Dropship, having an additional C5 internal, but not fitting on medium landing pads. I also, in absence of turrets, would have had a C3 gun on top, not the 2 C1s.

With turrets, I'd have it lengthened, as above, with a tailgun, dorsal turret and a turret on each side, with the 2 C2 and C3 underneath for forward arc.